I found the following excerpt from
this February 19, 2008 article in the
Brussels Journal (a source which I rarely, if ever, cite) at
Eleanor Duckwall's Spotlight:
...The Kosovo Albanians claimed Kosovo for two reasons: (a) because long, very long ago, before the province was Serbian, it used to be theirs and (b) because today they have become a majority in the province. America granted them their wish and forced Serbia out.
What if tomorrow Hispanics in California (or Texas) push for the independence of Southern California (or Southern Texas), arguing (a) that a long time ago, before these provinces became Anglo-American, they were Mexican and (b) that Hispanics have now become a majority there? Applying the Kosovo logic of Bill Clinton and George Bush, Washington should then be forced out of Southern California by an international army of European, Russian and Chinese troops who would establish an independent “nation” there. All this would be done in violation of the international rule that international borders can only be changed with the agreement of all parties. This is how Washington is treating Serbia today....
The caption is "The 'nation' of Aztlan - America's Kosovo":
So, fellow bloggers here at IBA, what do you think of the above excerpt? I'm not sure what to make of it.
So, fellow bloggers here at IBA, what do you think of the above excerpt? I'm not sure what to make of it.
The principle is the same. What's good for the goose is good for the gander - as they say.
ReplyDeleteOnly difference is they are not Muslims and the Hispanics know which side of their bread is buttered.
It is clear that the Kosovo situation is a disgrace and the thin end of the wedge. What is also a disgrace is the way the MSM are handling this story.
On another note re MSM the danish intifada which included a bomb in a shopping mall has had no mention whatsover as far as I know apart from the blogosphere. Perhaps they are afraid that news of it will encourage/stir up Muslims in other EU countries to follow suit.
No its not the same. There's no PC there
ReplyDeleteThe spanish took it from the navajo, apaches, Nez Perce, etc. Now if we had a majority of Navajo in the 4 corners areas......
There can be no argument about who was on the land. Native indians, not those who immigrated there by choice over the 5 hundred years since the spanish invaded.
Besides, being even MORE cynical....you know the lines in the constitution about what happens when the courts have no ability to function in the case o uprising etc.
Is there anyone who doubts the level of violence our govt would bring to bear? We already did this thing once after Sumter
Epa,
ReplyDeleteThere can be no argument about who was on the land. Native indians, not those who immigrated there by choice over the 5 hundred years since the spanish invaded.
I know what you're saying. But many south of our border also carry native-Indian blood, some of them with great pride.
Is there anyone who doubts the level of violence our govt would bring to bear?
I'd like to believe that we still have that same attitude on the governing level.
Ray,
ReplyDeleteIn a way, the two scenarios do have the same separatist ideology.
Interesting that you read that at Brussel's Journal of all places? Brussel's Journal is a blog dedicated to Flemish Nationalism. What's the difference between Flemish Nationalism and Mexican Nationalism, or Kosovaran Nationalism?
ReplyDeleteCan someone please explain the justification for a distinction, if this is one?
AOW- If I were Navajo or Apache I'd be pretty proud too. But, there's no argument that the vast majority of latinos in the southwest are voluntary immigrants over the time in question. They are not the direct descendants of Cochise, who were forcibly settled there.
ReplyDeleteThe muslim euros in question are not in that position. Ironically the serbs may be. I'm not sure of that. I really don't care. Neither should america. This is of VASTLY more import to Putin than me. Vastly more to Italy than the USA. Vastly more to Greece than Illinois.
What did happen to the scythians btw? Putin needs to worry about them. They WERE there first.
Ironically this all goes right to what bedevils the middle east.
What determines a state's right to exist?
The DNA of the first amoeba to crawl out of primordial sludge?
I don't think so.
In THIS world THIS determines your right to exist
I see important similarities and important differences. Once a land becomes populated with an alien culture, it seeks its own government. When the Anglos in Texas became numerous enough they wanted to be free of Mexican rule. The reverse can happen.
ReplyDeleteThe difference is that we one had a good record of assimilation and those that came here wanted what we had to offer: freedom and prosperity. However, there is widespread hostility to assimilation in academia and among some of the new immigrants.
Still, Hispanics aren’t as adamant about holding on to their old cultural ways as often is the case with Muslims. Religion gives an extra imperative--it’s not just comfort with one’s traditions but a duty to have one’s doctrines dominate.
If I'm wrong, I'd like to hear more from people living in the South West.
My experience with Hispanics (and I live in SoCal) is that they are no less likely to integrate, inter-marry, and inter-mingle, than any other race.
ReplyDeleteThe only reason there is a problem, in my opinion, is because we have had such a big influx of Hispanics in such a short period of time that it is very easy for them to behave and live as if they are still in their country of origin. There are parts of Souther California which look as if a city from Mexico was just pulled out of the ground and plopped down here.
What's the difference between Flemish Nationalism and Mexican Nationalism, or Kosovaran Nationalism?
ReplyDeleteFlemish nationalists claim only Flanders.
Is Mexican nationalism that does not include claims of Aztlan a threat to the US?
Perhaps you could explain to me the difference between Kosovar nationalism and Albanian nationalism.
When the Anglos in Texas became numerous enough they wanted to be free of Mexican rule.
ReplyDeleteYou should be careful of what you read. I also noticed that characterization in "Culturism," but the "anglos" did actually join a terrritory that was already in revolt.
America's Palestinians will win their Republic through legislation. We are at least 20 years too late to prevent the reconquista of the American West.
ReplyDeleteMecHa, La Raza and Aztlan (Virtually the same organisation) are infinitely more clever than the Arabs,,,,and a great deal smarter than the dumbed down American public. Those separatist organisations are well represented in Local, State and national legislatures, and have enormous influence within the Republicratic party.
Research a bit about those organisations.....and either learn Spanish (I did, years ago, in Orange County California)or prepare to move.
http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/7446/
ReplyDeleteimmigmar26bwebjpg6vk.jpg
Life in California will remain pretty much the same after the secession so there isn't much to worry about.
Michael,
ReplyDeleteThe average Hispanic is not a racist, or separatist. It is true that Mecha, etc. have made political inroads, but the average person does not agree with their racist agenda.
I don't think the same can be said of our Islamic enemies.
Hmmm the Balkans again....when will we learn...? My fear is the eventual ascension of Kosovo into the EU...thus extending the 'attack on one is an attack on all' philosophy to a major flash point between Russia (or her allies....and yes I include Serbia) and the EU/NATO. The Serbians have ruled out military action...for now. But eventually the will go for it...and if they don't? The plethora of Serbian Militia's will. I used to think the Serbians were the bad guys.....and then the Albanians invaded where I live...and can I just say what a 'charming' bunch of people they are! Open,warm,friendly,sociable,clean and absolutely fine, impeccable, high moral values.....especially when trying to get into 13 year old girls underwear...maybe it's the school uniform..?
ReplyDeleteYa know it's amazing, the older you get, the more of a Realist you become...I think an independent Kosovo is going to end badly. And Ray is quite right about the media putting a BS gloss on this....although the more honest reportage is one of dread...
Absolutely correct Pastorius....I wasn't joking when I noted that things would remain the same after secession......... it would be an Islamic Republic.....both of our heads would be lifted permanently from our shoulders.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, I much prefer Raquel Tejada (Welch), Flaco Jimanez and Hope Sandoval to Yasir, Osama and Fatima!
Correction;
ReplyDelete"If it were to be an Islamic Republic"
Sorry
The Bear is waking up...
ReplyDeletehttp://www.bnp.org.uk/2008/02/23/russia-could-use-force-over-kosovo
I say this as a complete ignoramus on the subject:
ReplyDeleteI hope Russia does use force over Kosovo.
Official Russian military involvement runs the risk of triggering a larger conflict with NATO. The Russians can, of course, provide military assistance through unofficial channels. The NATO countries themselves are divided over the issue. Greece, a NATO country, is definitely siding with Serbia. If war breaks out, I'm sure there will be Greek volunteers quietly slipping into Kosovo to aid the Serbs. Canada has been wisely keeping mum so far after realizing it was played by the Albanians back in 1999. It's also worried about setting a precedent that will be exploited by Quebec's separatists. If NATO goes to war over Kosovo, Canada will have two unappealing choices: do the expedient thing to appease the U.S. by backing a bunch of lying narco-terrorists or back out of a war without any benefit to Canada, possibly breaking NATO in the process.
ReplyDeletePastorius,
ReplyDeleteMy experience with Hispanics (and I live in SoCal) is that they are no less likely to integrate, inter-marry, and inter-mingle, than any other race.
Of course, I don't live in SoCal, but I have visited there on numerous occasions. You would know better than I, but I have noticed that many areas of Latinos seems self-segregated. While I, an Anglo, was welcome to visit, I still think that I was viewed as an outsider.
Have you ever read Mexifornia by Victor Davis Hansen? I don't recall the book's containing much about "official" separatism, but I did notice material about a cultural and economic divide, even prior to the arrival to California of so many Latinos.
I'm not sure of the name of the SoCal town (Mayfield?), but a while back I read that the Americans there up and left, and gave the town over to the hordes of illegals who had moved in.
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone else here know of that?
Much of the day, I've been thinking about what Ray said: The principle is the same.
ReplyDeleteIs the prinicple the same, or the same enough, to be concerned about for the American Southwest?
Jason said, Once a land becomes populated with an alien culture, it seeks its own government.
An "alien culture" can be absorbed, if the "non-alien culture" is dominant and stands its ground. Sometimes. Later generations show if the assimilation really happened, be that assimilation an absorption or dominance by the "non-alien" culture.
Maccus Germanis,
ReplyDeleteIs Mexican nationalism that does not include claims of Aztlan a threat to the US?
That depends on a lot of factors.
If the nationalism means not assimilating and conforming to American values (including not following the rule of civil law), then I would see it as a threat.
Are supporters of Aztlan mostly legals or illegals? Just asking.
Epa,
ReplyDeleteIf I were Navajo or Apache I'd be pretty proud too.
That's not exactly what I was getting at, though.
In Latin America, race isn't viewed the same was as has been traditionally the case in the United States and, to a greater extent, in Europe.
Mestizo, mulatto, indio--all are common terms without nearly the pejorative aspect associated with many Western cultures. Oh, sure, there was a time when those of "pure Spanish blood" had the upper hand. But for the majority of Latin American nations (exception = Argentina, if I recall correctly), it is almost assumed that the populace will have Native American blood in their veins. The racial pride to which I was referring is almost a pride in being of mixed race. Separatist groups such as Aztlan are exploiting that, IMO.
I agree with you that armed force determines a great deal with regard to which "culture" will dominate--at least, so it's been in the history of the world.
Michael,
ReplyDeleteI am a Spanish major (1972).
My choice of major made me the laughing stock of most in Northern Virginia.
They're not laughing any more.
I use my Spanish almost every time I'm in a fender bender or am a witness to a car accident. Such a possibility was out of the question in 1972. We didn't even have Taco Bell here back then. ;^)
Pastorius,
ReplyDeleteNever underestimate Russia.
"Never underestimate Russia"
ReplyDeleteVLADIMIR PUTIN -DEFENDER OF CHRISTENDOM?
Though his father was a "militant atheist", Putin's mother "was a devoted Orthodox believer". Though she kept no icons at home, she attended church regularly (despite the government's persecution of the Russian Orthodox Church at that time). She ensured that Putin was secretly christened as a baby, and she regularly took him to services. His father knew of this but turned a blind eye. According to his own statements, his religious awakening followed the serious car crash of his wife in 1993, and was deepened by a life-threatening fire that burned down their dacha in August 1996. Right before an official visit to Israel his mother gave him his baptismal cross telling him to get it blessed “I did as she said and then put the cross around my neck. I have never taken it off since"
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Putin
Mecha and the Aztlan movement are very offensive. However, I work with and know a lot of Hispanic people and they are rather quick at integrating. It takes a generation or two.
ReplyDeleteThe thing about self-segregating is an appearence thing. First, when they move here, they live in neighborhoods where everyone speaks Spanish. Then, when they integrate, they are just find. However, Hispanics don't have the same emphasis on education in their culture, so they do tend to become blue collar workers. This looks like a form of self-segregation, but it is not.
These are my opinions, of course, and they could be wrong. I don't like illegal immigration. I am for the fence. I am for deporting any illegal involved in a crime. I'm hardcore in that way. However, I get along with Hispanics well, and I don't think they ought to be our worry.
Anon,
ReplyDeleteYes good analysis of the Geo political/strategic dimension to all this. It's not pretty. I'm particularly worried that a conflict in Kosovo could ultimetly put pressure on a strained alliance. Nato members on opposite sides of the conflict....by popular demand of their respective populations. Putin has been looking for an excuse to have a foreign adventure, against the West,using conventional assets, for a while. If Nato dissolves....then what in Europe? Can the EU army become an effective, cohesive, defensive force in a short time. Whilst fighting an enemy that has potential for overwhelming conventional dominance? The Russians were kept to the East ONLY because of Mutually Assured Destruction. If we manage to have a PROXY war against Russia, in Kosovo with a fragmented and diminished NATO/EU Army, that somehow manages to NOT escalate to the use of Strategic or even Theater (Nuclear weapons), a very dangerous precedent will have been set and we can forget the concept of a 'contained' Russia.
Pastorius, Always on Watch,
ReplyDeleteI'm reading this debate RE SoCal with interest. I am aware of some of the historic context here and was aware that social problems were brewing...
Re that other thing, Pater got back to me with apologies for taking so long, AGM season! Yes the soil improvement does take place but any thing that grows ultimately puts bio mass back into the soil...thus improving it, growing in marginal soils however is very useful. Yields on the crop also tend to be inconsistent due to a wide gene base to the species, thus necessitating selective breeding (narrowing the gene base) for higher yields. If the gene base becomes to narrow, the species is threatened by a specialized predator (Insects, crop disease etc). He says it's been around for a while, needs more research and investment. To me, the fact that he didn't entirely dismiss it is suggestive that he thinks it may have possibilities.
Pastorius,
ReplyDeleteps. Why do you hope the Russians use force? Where are you coming from with this?
Watcher,
ReplyDeleteAs I said, I am a complete ignoramus in my comment about Russia. The "logic" behind my wishing they would use force is simply that I don't think Kosovo should be an independent state. And, anything which will put an end to that charade seems like a good thing from my ignoramus vantage point.
As an American, I don't much worry about NATO breaking down. NATO hasn't served us that well in our current war, has it?
Anyway, on the subject of the crop, I'm glad he chimed in. Sounds to me like it's another thing to not get too excited about.
Ultimately, I think bioengineering (creating fuels from the ground up) is going to be the solution. Go Craig Venter.
As an American, I don't much worry about NATO breaking down. NATO hasn't served us that well in our current war, has it?
ReplyDeleteI can understand where your coming from, in theory after 911 other Nato members should have rallied around the attacked Nation (US)and any military action would be an act of Nato . Well, Nato was created specifically to hold the Soviets back and for that purpose it is just barely fit for purpose, for waging war on a non state actor it is probably fair to say that it is useless, this sort of operation requires another organization, although a global common security pact would make more sense to me. I think as an American perhaps you should regard Nato in the same way I regard both of our nations Nuclear Arsenals. Not nice. Far from a perfect solution...But necessary. I've said it before and I'll say it again. We have a limited time frame to defeat the Jihadi. Both the Chinese and Russian giants are stirring. the world is not big enough for 3 super powers, each with global reach and a global sphere of influence.
A unilateralist, isolationist and withdrawn America will ultimetly be (along with the rest of us) a dead America. I just don't think that it is fair that the American tax payer shoulders more than their fair share of the costs... Bro, if you think the Jihadi's have cut us deep, wait and see what the Russians and Chinese are capable of.
Oh and yes I agree, an independent Kosovo is just to much of a risk, flash point call it what you will....before we even get into their historical claim (dubious).
ReplyDeleteWatcher,
ReplyDeleteLet me be clear, I am not advocating an isolationist U.S. It's just that the members of NATO have been isolating themselves from us. As I see it, we have had to do most of the heavy lifting ourselves, while others carp at us.
Meanwhile, the carping of the international community adds to the strength of the Democrats, and we are now about to elect Obama, a man who will sit down and negotiate with Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.
Of course, the carpers will never admit that they contributed to that scenario, but they did. Instead, they will blame America.
As for your comments about Russia and China;
The way I see it, Russia and China are who we are at war with. They are using the Jihad as their army. Sure, the Jihadis think it's all about them, but ultimately it's about us, Russia and China.
If we destroy the Jihadis, then that is the equivalent of destroying the ground troops of Russia and China. Then, they will have to use their Air troops (nucelar). At that point, we are back to the Cold War; detente.
That's my view of the world. Maybe I'm wrong.
Anyway, back to Kosovo. According to the way I see the world conflict, if Russia wants to end Kosovaran sovereignty, then good. That's the equivalent of Russia taking out their own ground troops.
See?
AOW,
ReplyDeleteMy response was to the implication that the Flemmish, that aspire to an independent Flanders, are as threatening as both Mexicans that aspire to Aztlan, and Albanians that aspire to Kosovo.
Mexican nationalism that does recognise and limit itself to mutually (between Mexico and US) agreed upon borders, I do not see as a threat.