Wednesday, January 21, 2009

Geert Wilders To Be Charged For Making Anti-Islamic Statements

"Support Geert in his legal battle? Click here for more
information."

Sign the petition here.



UPDATED AT BOTTOM OF POST


Geert Wilders Statement:

“If I have to stand trial, I will not be alone, stand trial alone, but also
with the hundreds of thousands of Dutch people who reject the Islamization of the Netherlands,Their opinion is only represented in The Hague [parliament] by the Party for Freedom. Who else will stand for our culture when I have to remain silent? This strengthens me in these harsh days ...”


If Geert Wilders can be charged like this, we're all in trouble. Anyone who warns about the dangers of Islam.

There are no rules about what you can and can't say. The rules are not stipulated, until the day they charge you, and even then, they are vague as hell.

Religion is one of the primary centers of power in any society. Religion, Government, and the Media, all have the power to arbitrate our lives. As such WE MUST BE ALLOWED TO CRITICISM THESE CENTERS OF POWER.

If we are not allowed to criticize the powers that arbitrate our societies, they run unchecked with unlimited power.

This is why ABSOLUTE FREE SPEECH IS A MUST.

As long as there is a question of what does and does not constitute free speech, the idea itself is in constant play, and one can be locked up one day, for what he would have been celebrated for saying on another day.

The only way to take my free speech from me is for them to try to pry it out of my fire-breathing mouth.

The second amendment is a very good idea. Because, words can only get you so far. But, a good word backed up with a gun changes the world.

Islam is antithetical to the freedoms of Western Civilization. Our first right here in the West is to Freedom of Conscience. All other rights start there. Islamic Sharia law calls for those who leave Islam (in other words, those who make a Free Choice with their Conscience), to be stoned to death.

Just that one simple fact makes Islam absolutely untenable in the Western world. To the extent that Muslims DO NOT follow their religion, they can be decent citizens of the West.

For this reason, and many others, I say Fuck Islam, and the camel it rode in on. And, you know why I say that? Because it is my right as a Free human being to say so.


A Dutch court has ordered prosecutors to put a right-wing politician on trial for making anti-Islamic statements.

Freedom Party leader Geert Wilders made a controversial film last year equating Islam with violence and has likened the Koran to Adolf Hitler's Mein Kampf.

"In a democratic system, hate speech is considered so serious that it is in the general interest to... draw a clear line," the court in Amsterdam said.

Mr Wilders said the judgement was an "attack on the freedom of expression".


"Participation in the public debate has become a dangerous activity. If you give your opinion, you risk being prosecuted," he said.

Not only he, but all Dutch citizens opposed to the "Islamisation" of their country would be on trial, Mr Wilders warned.

"Who will stand up for our culture if I am silenced?" he added.

'Incitement'

The three judges said that they had weighed Mr Wilders's "one-sided generalisations" against his right to free speech, and ruled that he had gone beyond the normal leeway granted to politicians.

"The Amsterdam appeals court has ordered the prosecution of member of parliament Geert Wilders for inciting hatred and discrimination, based on comments by him in various media on Muslims and their beliefs," the court said in a statement.


"The court also considers appropriate criminal prosecution for insulting Muslim worshippers because of comparisons between Islam and Nazism made by Wilders," it added.

The court's ruling reverses a decision last year by the public prosecutor's office, which said Mr Wilders's comments had been made outside parliament as a contribution to the debate on Islam in Dutch society and that no criminal offence had been committed.

Prosecutors said on Wednesday that they could not appeal against the judgement and would open an investigation immediately.

Gerard Spong, a prominent lawyer who pushed for Mr Wilders's prosecution, welcomed the court's decision.

"This is a happy day for all followers of Islam who do not want to be tossed on the garbage dump of Nazism," he told reporters.

'Fascist book'

In March 2008, Mr Winders posted a film about the Koran on the internet, prompting angry protests across the Muslim World.

Anti-Wilders protest in Amsterdam (March 2008)
Opponents say Mr Wilders has been fuelling hate against Muslims

The opening scenes of Fitna - a Koranic term sometimes translated as "strife" - show a copy of the holy book followed by footage of the bomb attacks on the US in 11 September 2001, London in July 2005 and Madrid in March 2004.

Pictures appearing to show Muslim demonstrators holding up placards saying "God bless Hitler" and "Freedom go to hell" also feature.

The film ends with the statement: "Stop Islamisation. Defend our freedom."

Dutch Prime Minister Jan Peter Balkenende said at the time that the film wrongly equated Islam with violence and served "no purpose other than to offend".

A year earlier, Mr Wilders described the Koran as a "fascist book" and called for it to be banned in "the same way we ban Mein Kampf", in a letter published in the De Volkskrant newspaper.

Mr Wilders has had police protection since Dutch director Theo Van Gogh was killed by a radical Islamist in 2004.

Correspondents say his Freedom Party (PVV), which has nine MPs in the lower house of parliament, has built its popularity largely by tapping into the fear and resentment of Muslim immigrants.




UPDATES, UPDATES, UPDATES - READ THE REST

Islam is like Nazism in that it is a supremacist doctrine, wherein all those who do not belong to the Party (religion) are considered second-class citizens, subject to being killed or converted, at the whim of Imams, and other religious clerics.

Additionally, Islam's hatred of Jews is eerily similar to that of Nazis, as is evidenced in the Koran, as quoted by Hamas in their official charter:

The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Muslim).

Now, using my electronic nuance machine, I will admit that there are many Muslims who do not believe such things. In fact, there are plenty of Muslims who, very likely, oppose these ideas in their hearts.

However, there is no organized Muslim voice against the more dangerous strictures of Islam. To my knowledge, there is no Islamic political organization, academic institution, media outlet, or government, of any appreciable size, anywhere in the world, which is moderate.

Mecca, the Holy City of Islam, is in the most strict of all Islamic nations, Saudi Arabia. In the Saudi Kingdom, a man or woman will be put to death for apostasy, homosexuality, and/or adultery. It is not that uncommon for women who have been raped to be put to death for adultery, or to be the victims of an Honor Killing at the hands of their relatives.

Such are the ideas of Islam.

I would say that Islam, in this sense, is not only like Nazism, but in some ways, worse. And, I would say that I see no place for such ideas in the Western world.


MORE ON THIS SUBJECT AT THE FOLLOWING LINKS:



Link to Geert Wilders' FITNA

Text of Dutch court judgement against Wilders (in English)


Take this moronic Dutch Court's decision and thump the cowardly traitors repeatedly with their own stick . .present "FITNA" in every language at every opportunity . . .a form of free advertising if you will . . .all in the interests of full disclosure regarding the basis for the suit:

Rosetta Stone for FITNA

The complete list of languages into which Fitna has been translated:

* Arabic
* Bulgarian
* Croatian
* Czech
* Danish
* English
* Finnish
* French
* German
* Indonesian
* Italian
* Norwegian
* Polish
* Portuguese
* Romanian
* Russian
* Serbian
* Slovenian
* Spanish
* Swedish
* Tagalog

**************

BTW, recall Van Bommel raised public anger in The Netherlands by his calling for 'an intifada against Israel' -- and by leading a Hamas protest meeting where hate-speech chants against Jews such as "Hamas, Hamas, all the Jews Must be Gassed" in ...


Where are the Dutch courts on that?

The first is the statement Wilders' party has published:
“We depend on small donations. The Freedom Party is the only party in Parliament that does not accept any government funding. This court decision jeopardizes the very existence of the Freedom Party. We simply cannot afford the enormous legal expenses.”

And the second is a law passed by Dutch parliament some days ago:
The Dutch parliament wants the government to prosecute antisemitic and anti-Islamic statements, now that emotions about the Middle East are again flaring up. Only the SGP, the Christian Union, the PVV (Party for Freedom) and the VVD (People's Party for Freedom and Democracy) voted against this motion of the D66 Thursday.

Both worsen even more the prospects of Islam's criticism in the Netherlands.

47 comments:

Anonymous said...

Link to Geert Wilders' FITNA

Text of Dutch court judgement against Wilders (in English)

Anonymous said...

The Netherlands = Dar al-Islam. If you live in the Netherlands, prepare to pay forward your dhimmi, you kuffar dogs.

Damien said...

Pastorius,

The free world needs to stand with Wilders.

Anonymous said...

Education of whomever is willing to listen has to be first priority. Without some critical level of public awareness we will wind up in the same place as the Netherlands before we know what is happening. Wilders should not be promoting censorship himself, but that is not what he is being charged with. His life is now at peril because the court charges him with "insulting Muslim worshippers because of comparisons between Islam and Nazism". All of which comparisons are valid. Some of said "Muslim worshippers" have been filmed out in the streets carrying signs and raising chants in praise of Nazism and Hitler. Few if any voices in the Muslim community have been raised against this. Wilders isn't even being prosecuted for slander or libel. He speaks the truth and those whom the truth offends have pressured amoral authorities to punish him for it. Sooner or later we are going to face this here; it has been happening all around us.

Oh, and Mr. Spong? Islam belongs on the garbage dump of Nazism whether its followers want that or not. They are the same creed under different names. If its followers don't like that fact, it is up to them to reform their "religion" if they can and shut the hell up if they can't or won't.

Anonymous said...

ABSOLUTE FREE SPEECH IS A MUST.


Take this moronic Dutch Court's decision and thump the cowardly traitors repeatedly with their own stick . .present "FITNA" in every language at every opportunity . . .a form of free advertising if you will . . .all in the interests of full disclosure regarding the basis for the suit:

Rosetta Stone for FITNA

The complete list of languages into which Fitna has been translated:

* Arabic
* Bulgarian
* Croatian
* Czech
* Danish
* English
* Finnish
* French
* German
* Indonesian
* Italian
* Norwegian
* Polish
* Portuguese
* Romanian
* Russian
* Serbian
* Slovenian
* Spanish
* Swedish
* Tagalog

**************

BTW, recall Van Bommel raised public anger in The Netherlands by his calling for 'an intifada against Israel' -- and by leading a Hamas protest meeting where hate-speech chants against Jews such as "Hamas, Hamas, all the Jews Must be Gassed" in ...


Where are the Dutch courts on that?

Damien said...

Anonymous,

You asked,
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BTW, recall Van Bommel raised public anger in The Netherlands by his calling for 'an intifada against Israel' -- and by leading a Hamas protest meeting where hate-speech chants against Jews such as "Hamas, Hamas, all the Jews Must be Gassed" in ...


Where are the Dutch courts on that?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Good Question? More people need to point out their cowardice, as well as their hypocrisy.

Anonymous said...

I work fore freedom. So when comes the police. I don´t stop whit mine page mohammedt-shirt.com. This is Not mine Europe.Islam is the end of freedom of speech. So fuck islam and the false prophet.

Unknown said...

There are two things I hace added after writing you before, Pastorius.

The first is the statement Wilders' party has published:
“We depend on small donations. The Freedom Party is the only party in Parliament that does not accept any government funding. This court decision jeopardizes the very existence of the Freedom Party. We simply cannot afford the enormous legal expenses.”

And the second is a law passed by Dutch parliament some days ago:
The Dutch parliament wants the government to prosecute antisemitic and anti-Islamic statements, now that emotions about the Middle East are again flaring up. Only the SGP, the Christian Union, the PVV (Party for Freedom) and the VVD (People's Party for Freedom and Democracy) voted against this motion of the D66 Thursday.

Both worsen even more the prospects of Islam's criticism in the Netherlands.

Mark said...

This is a very sad day for Europe. This so-called judge should have his licence to practise revoked. He is a disgrace to Holland, and a disgrace to the legal system in the Netherlands! Fie on him!

Anonymous said...

video evidence of Van Bommel at protest rally

HRW

andre79 said...

No throat slitting so far, tho. That's a start for "the religion of peace".

Just Cause said...

You guys may have already seen this and know most of it anyway but here is a great resource on the Quar'an and it's evil teachings:

http://prophetofdoom.net/POD_Quran_Print.Islam

I think it was on IBLOGA I read a post that said in order to win this war we only need to kill one - ISLAM.

So, let's kill it. Islam does follow Goebbels doctrine that if you repeat a lie over and over eventually people will believe it thus the truth becomes the enemy to them. Unfortunately for them though, the truth is right infront of everyones face - even though they chose not to look at it, it doesn't mean that we shouldn't start to take it to them and point it out.

What I can't understand is that any legal action such as this is the perfect platform for Wilders to make his point. All he has to do in his court case is quote the quar'an and then mein kampf and job done surely?? Sure the press are useless idiots but the more this happens the less they are going to be able to ignore it.

I agree with everyone here though, fuck lslam. I would like to be personally responsible for destroying the credibility of it as a regligion for ever more and send the dirty donkey fucking desert nomads back to where they belong to sit on the rocks their dumbass satan worshipping prophet came from.

Anonymous said...

This is a typical example of LITIGATION JIHAD:

"Offended Muslims are very keen to sue kuffars on the slightest pretext. The objective is not necessarily to win the case but to harass the kuffars and force them to spend vast amounts of money on their legal defence, eg the security-probing Flying Imams who sued the passengers who reported their suspicious behaviour to the authorities, the hijab-wearing Muslima who didn't get the hairdressing job and Mark Steyn sued in a Canadian kangaroo court for telling the truth about Islam."

- The primary objective of this prosecution is similar. It is not necessarily to put Wilders behing bars (though that would be a bonus) , but to drive his entire party into bankruptcy.

Quote: “We depend on small donations. The Freedom Party is the only party in Parliament that does not accept any government funding. This court decision jeopardizes the very existence of the Freedom Party. We simply cannot afford the enormous legal expenses.”

Matt said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Pastorius said...

Thanks, everyone, for the additional info and links. I hope you notice that you contributed greatly to this post which will remain at the top of this blog through tomorrow.

I am very busy today, and have not had time to respond to comments.

Sorry about that.

Epaminondas said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Epaminondas said...

Geert belongs here.

Freedom of speech as WE understand it simply does not exist in the EU

The dutch govt wants anti semitic statements prosecuted as well as anti islamic?

FINE.

Close the mosques and arrest the imams and mullahs who do this.

BAN all suras and hadiths which are anti semitic.

I am just SURE this is what they had in mind in the Netherlands

Damien said...

Mark,

you said,
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is a very sad day for Europe. This so-called judge should have his licence to practise revoked. He is a disgrace to Holland, and a disgrace to the legal system in the Netherlands! Fie on him!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't know too much about the laws in the Netherlands, so I don't know if the judge is actually enforcing them, but if he is, and not some PC activist, than Europe is in even bigger trouble than we thought.

Damien said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Damien said...

Epaminondas,

you said,
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Geert belongs here.

Freedom of speech as WE understand it simply does not exist in the EU

The dutch govt wants anti semitic statements prosecuted as well as anti islamic?

FINE.

Close the mosques and arrest the imams and mullahs who do this.

BAN all suras and hadiths which are anti semitic.

I am just SURE this is what they had in mind in the Netherlands
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Unfortunately, if Wilders just leaves, it will only help Islamic fundamentalists take over Europe.
It is in the interest of ever free state to stop the expansion of Islam. In fact it is in the interest of every non Islamic state. The more countries fall to these barbarians, the less safe, the remaining countries in Dar al Harb will be, and that includes The United States of America.

At some point we may be forced to choose the lesser of two evils and help non democratic governments defend themselves against Jihadists. But It may not be too late for Europe. They need to get their act together, before they won't have to choose between noefascism and Islam-o-fascism, or they lose their ability to stop the Jihadists altogether!

Anonymous said...

PETITION FOR GEERT WILDERS:

http://www.petitiononline.com/wilders/petition.html

Damien said...

Anonymous,

Thank you! I just sign it. Here's a direct link to the petition for anyone else who wants to sign it.

Pastorius said...

Thanks, guys.

I put the petition at the top of the post now.

WiseOwl said...

Where is the European Court of Human Rights? The Hague isn't it? That's in Holland, isn't it? Hmmmmmmmm!

Anonymous said...

Either there is free speech or there isn't. If there is, then everyone is free to criticise someone else's beliefs or teachings. Muslims take advantage of this freedom, but it seems that the freedom is strictly a one-way street so far as they are concerned. When western courts support them in this then there is no freedom of speech. None whatever. Drill one hole in a bucket and it no longer holds water. Take away one tiny section of a freedom and it is no longer a freedom.

What is it that Muslims fear? From speaking with several apostates from Islam in the past, they fear the truth. They fear that subjecting Islam to questions about the demonstrable lies and inconsistencies which lie at the heart of their religion will bring it tumbling down.

I have no wish to destroy other peoples' faiths, however wrong I know or believe them to be, but neither do I wish to see those faiths so established and protected in the west that they are beyond my criticism. If Muslims want to live in a Muslim country under Muslim religious laws, then there are plenty of those in Africa, the Middle East and Asia and they should go there. I would prefer that they went of their own accord, but if they have to be forced to go, then so be it.

Mark said...

Damien:

I don't know too much about the laws in the Netherlands, so I don't know if the judge is actually enforcing them, but if he is, and not some PC activist, than Europe is in even bigger trouble than we thought.

This will be the judge's interpretation of the law.

Mark said...

By the way, folks... That petition is not a new one. I went to sign it and I was told I had already signed it. That must have been a long time ago.

Mark said...

Epaminondas:

Freedom of speech as WE understand it simply does not exist in the EU

It used to until Muslims came along. Oh, and the NuLabour government and its ilk.

WiseOwl said...

"Freedom of speech as WE understand it simply does not exist in the EU".

Exactly! Which is why we are having to fight on two fronts - For the UK to leabe the EU - and as soon as possible, and to stop and then roll back the spread of Islam here.

Mark said...

Wise Owl:

"Freedom of speech as WE understand it simply does not exist in the EU".

Exactly! Which is why we are having to fight on two fronts - For the UK to leabe the EU - and as soon as possible, and to stop and then roll back the spread of Islam here.


Are you really that naïve? Do you really believe that Britain leaving the EU is going to make the blindest bit of difference in such matters? Do you really believe that the British government has got the gonads to tackle Islam head-on?

Come on! This abhorrent politically correct sickness has metastasized everywhere in Europe, the UK included.

WiseOwl said...

I don't for a minute believe that the present government and the liberal establishment is willing to stand against Islam, but I do beleieve very strongly that the people will and that they are starting to do so. I also believe strongly that Britain leaving the EU WILL make a difference.

I I did not believe that I would no be here.

Anonymous said...

Telling people what they should and should not believe sounds quite Islamist don't you think, Mark?

Mark said...

Wise Owl:

I am here, and I don't believe that.

Mark said...

Anonymous:

Telling people what they should and should not believe sounds quite Islamist don't you think, Mark?

Yes, I certainly do. It also sounds like we're losing our freedoms.

These judges, and others in such positions, really can't understand the true nature of Islam, otherwise they wouldn't be so ready to capitulate. Surely?

Epaminondas said...

The EU, FROM ACTUAL EVENTS, we can be certain believes that which gives offense should be illegal.

Who complains loudest and most effectively that they are offended, and backs it with real threat (stated and unstated) wins in this.

The EU cannot be saved unless fundamental structural change at the level of voting occurs.

Here we have gerrymandering to help ensure incumbents stay in power, but when roused we have changed paths OFTEN.

That is not the case in the history of the EU which has gone but ONE WAY since the early 70's.

My OBSERVATION is that it's over.
Not what I want. My OBSERVATION.

In that historical line there has been no experience with a peaceful change of philosophical direction.

NOthing could make that more clear than the idea it is better to silence Geert, uphold TEDDY BEAR silencing of personal freedoms, and ignore the pure anti semitism inherent anywhere the Quran and Hadeeth are taught. After all, one can appear to be stopping offense, and ignore the mostly silent, intimidated jews, thus satisfying the appearance of justice, and offering the ability to continue on with the cheese cart before creme brulee...eh, mes amis?

The jews of the EU should leave en masse giving the EU the finger on departure, for where they cannot be intimidated and where it will not be condoned.

Geert Wilders ABILITY to continue his message is more important than him writing from some tokenized jail. They don't want to jail him, they want to SILENCE HIM
He must be allowed to speak.
Here is his best chance for that. Truth is no defense for him in the EU, it is HIS OFFENSE.

Truth is Wilder's offense.
And the EU can be saved while this is the case?

WiseOwl said...

I don't care where you are, Mark. When I joined this site, I hoped to find solidarity between everyone and anyone, wherever they are who work to resist Islamic expansion. If you scorn the efforts of others and make snide comments about their hopes and beliefs then it only shows solidarity in one place - between your ears!

If we do not fight united, then perhaps we don't deserve to win the fight ahead of us.

Heigh, ho, the search goes on.

Pastorius said...

Epaminondas,
You make a very good point when you say there is no defense for Wilders in Europe. That there is only the OFFENSE of Truth.

One ought never have to defend their right to Free Speech in a court of law anyway, should they? And, in such a case, you are right, to defend is to go on offense.

But, maybe that's not what you meant. Maybe you just meant to say that Wilders is offensive to EU-types.

Pastorius said...

WiseOwl,
I think you and Mark are generally in agreement. You are in agreement about the Islamist threat.

However, you WiseOwl believe that British people will defend themselves, and Mark does not believe that.

Both of you base that on the evidence of history, plus what you see around you.

It may be that you guys travel in different circles.

The question of whether or not we will defend ourselves is not a subject to become divided over, in my opinion.

However, I will say this, no football team ever won by going into the locker room at halftime and lamenting that they did not have the balls for battle.

We win by deciding we are willing to fight, that we do have the balls, and that we are going to give everything we have.

Mark said...

Wise Owl:

I don't care where you are, Mark. When I joined this site, I hoped to find solidarity between everyone and anyone, wherever they are who work to resist Islamic expansion.

However can you come to the conclusion that the only way to resist Islamist expansion is by everyone thinking the same? Being in solidarity with others does not mean that we have to be carbon copies of each other.

If you scorn the efforts of others and make snide comments about their hopes and beliefs then it only shows solidarity in one place - between your ears!

Why do you think I have scorned you? I think you are being a tad overly sensitive.

You seem to see the EU as the root of all evil. I do not.

I certainly think that there is much to be improved in it; but that is not necessarily a reason for throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

If we do not fight united, then perhaps we don't deserve to win the fight ahead of us.

Heigh, ho, the search goes on.


What's all this about fighting united? Is it not possible to fight the Islamist threat together, yet allowing each other our own beliefs on the EU? Surely these are not mutually exclusive. After all, Churchill was very much in favour of the EU. Have you read his Zürich speech, given on September 19, 1946? Check it out here.

In an earlier comment, you stated:

I don't for a minute believe that the present government and the liberal establishment is willing to stand against Islam, but I do beleieve very strongly that the people will and that they are starting to do so. I also believe strongly that Britain leaving the EU WILL make a difference.

For the people to rise up, they need some form of leadership. Where are you going to find that leadership?

You may believe that Britain leaving the EU will make a difference, I do not think that would be a good thing; rather, if you dislike the EU so much, then why don't you try and fashion it into being something closer to your fancy.

There is much improvement to be made in its institutions. But one thing you have to admit: It has kept Europe free of wars, fighting and strife since the Second World War. Surely you don't wish to return to European nation fighting European nation, do you?

The Europeans are basically Christian people. Yes, they speak different languages, and yes they eat different foods, etc. But deep down we are all very similar. I found this to be true when I learnt German, for example. Before I learnt the language I had fully expected to find a 'strange' people, as my opinion of them had been tainted by the War. (I grew up in the post-War years.)

When I learnt the language, and started interacting with German speakers on a day to day basis, I found a delightful people, kind and generous and considerate and warm. Very much like the British in many ways.

The tragedy of many British people is that they have an inbuilt suspicion of the foreign and strange. It's such a pity. One thing you can be certain of: I am no 'Little Englander'!

Our European brothers – German, French, Spaniards, Italians,Austrians, etc – should all work with us in our common purpose: To defeat Islam.

Why do you think I entitled my book, The Dawning of a New Dark Age? It is because I fully believe that Islam will take us back to the Dark Ages if its advance is not thwarted and checked. That's what I believe!

I[f] I did not believe that [that the UK should leave the EU] I would no be here.

Well, I am here, and I do not believe that it should. So where does that leave me? Would you like me to depart?

Mark said...

Pastorius:

I think you and Mark are generally in agreement. You are in agreement about the Islamist threat.

That's for sure.

However, you WiseOwl believe that British people will defend themselves, and Mark does not believe that.

That is not true, actually, Pastorius. I do believe that the British will defend themselves given the right circumstances. I always remember my father telling me when I was a child that the British are no good at fighting until their backs are against the wall. Then look out! Our backs are not yet against the wall.

Wise Owl and I also differ in our views on the EU. Wise Owl seems to think that the EU can only weaken us in our fight against the encroachment of Islam. I believe that the EU could be a source of strength if we worked together in unison.

Both of you base that on the evidence of history, plus what you see around you.

That's true.

It may be that you guys travel in different circles.

That's quite possibly true, too. But my experience may be different from Wise Owl's. I have worked in central Europe; so that experience has certainly fashioned who I am and what I believe in.

Epaminondas said...

Given the results of the recent votes on EU constitutions in the individual nations of Europe, BY THE PEOPLES...can anyone guess how accurately the govt represents the will of the peoples?

I certainly have no idea, nor do I know the turnout rates.

It's also hard for me to judge from the europeans I know since they are all in medical research, and this group is not the center of ANY bell curve to make judgments from.

Captain USpace said...

.
This is BIG, this is REAL BIG! SPREAD THE WORD to the world everyone! The EU Mandarins have crossed the line! If this goes to court, how much more of the public will become aware of this tyranny?

All real freedom starts with freedom of speech. If there is no freedom of speech, then there can be no real freedom.

The Christians and Jews don’t riot when somebody makes fun of Christ or Jews. People must learn to be civilized, and held to account when they are not. Muslims included.

Geert Wilders is a hero spreading the painful truth. He MUST be protected!
.
absurd thought -
God of the Universe says
weak and insecure is BEST

the best way for religion
KILL those who question it

.
absurd thought -
God of the Universe wants
Islam for everyone

submit to glorious life
slavery and servitude

.
absurd thought -
God of the Universe says
outlaw self-defense

exposing violent crimes
shall be deemed hate speech

.
absurd thought -
God of the Universe says
outlaw most bloggers

license all the rest
monitor their writing

.
absurd thought -
God of the Universe says
just pretend to defend

human rights while stopping
speech defending human rights
.
All real freedom starts with freedom of speech. Without freedom of speech there can be no real freedom.
.
Film 'Fitna' Spreads Across World
.
'Fitna' Film Post in Arabic
.
Philosophy of Liberty Cartoon
.
Help Halt Terrorism Today!
.
USpace

:)
.

Pastorius said...

Mark,
I didn't realize you were somewhat a supporter of the EU.

Interesting. I have little opinion on the EU, other than that I believe it is over-bureaucratized, if that is a word.

At this point, it is a force for Socialism and PC, and the people have to get control of it, but that will be done by the people of each individual government voting to take control of who represents them.

By the way, as I understand it, the people have no control over who represents them at the EU level.

That isn't right, is it?

Mark said...

Pastorius:

I didn't realize you were somewhat a supporter of the EU.

Yes, in many ways I am. I do have reservations, because I see many things happening which are undemocratic. It is also inclined to be unwieldy.

Further, I am against this aggressive expansion of the EU to include countries with which we have little or nothing in common. Turkey is a good case in point.

But the fact remains that the coming together of nations with a similar heritage can only be a good thing. It is just a question of how far we want to go with it. (Notice my emphasis.)

In many ways, it is a crying shame that we didn't enter the euro when the pound was strong. The euro is a strong currency. The pound sterling, by contrast, is a currency which has grown ever weaker: Successive governments have allowed the currency to dwindle in value to pay for their own incompetence.

When I was a boy of eleven, the pound was worth eight US dollars and twelve Swiss francs. Look at it today! It's a sad shadow of its former self. Give me prosperity over emotion and jingoism every time.

Interesting. I have little opinion on the EU, other than that I believe it is over-bureaucratized, if that is a word.

Yes, it certainly is "over-Bureaucratized". But that, in and of itself, is no reason to destroy the very institution. As I said earlier: It is no reason to throw the baby out with the bath water; rather, it could be a very good reason to go in, feet first, and be the architects of something better – mould the institutions to suit our own ideas.

The problem with the British is this: They refuse to learn languages, and they refuse to embrace the concept of the EU. They prefer, rather, to bitch and moan and whine on the edges, saying how unfair everything is. (But they don't have the balls to come out of the EU all the same.) We should position ourselves to lead Europe. God knows we have enough history to do so.

At this point, it is a force for Socialism and PC, and the people have to get control of it, but that will be done by the people of each individual government voting to take control of who represents them.

There is a tendency towards socialism; but that is not inevitable. I don't think that the Europeans want the raw capitalism which has prevailed in the US. Europeans like capitalism, sure enough; but they generally opt for something softer, gentler, and kinder. For example, it would be anathema to most Europeans to have so many millions without healthcare as you have in the States, people who rely on charity in times of need in old age. But in and of itself, there is nothing socialist about the EU as a coming together of nations. It is only as socialist or capitalist as the people wish it to be.

In any case, the EU has brought great prosperity to the people of Europe. Witness Southern Ireland, a country which has really come on since adopting the euro.

By the way, as I understand it, the people have no control over who represents them at the EU level.

That is not true. They are represented by elected members of the European parliament, the MEPs. The problem is that the British are often so passive that they don't even know, half the time, who their MEP is!

Pastorius said...

Mark,
I didn't know MEP's were elected. I thought they were selected by the sitting government.

That's a good thing. Glad to hear it.

Then, I guess, as far as the EU is concerned, the people will not take control, until they become more invested in it, and they won't become more invested in it, until it becomes too painful to not be invested.

Mark said...

Pastorius:

I didn't know MEP's were elected. I thought they were selected by the sitting government.

No, they are elected.

That's a good thing. Glad to hear it.

It would be totally undemocratic if the representatives weren't elected.

Then, I guess, as far as the EU is concerned, the people will not take control, until they become more invested in it, and they won't become more invested in it, until it becomes too painful to not be invested.

Yes, in many ways one can say that people need to take control. Though it has to be said that there is much room for more democratically-elected government over here.

Mark said...

Anonymous:

Telling people what they should and should not believe sounds quite Islamist don't you think, Mark?

Yes, I do actually.

Sorry it has taken me so long to respond to your comment. I missed it in my email notifications.