I read with alarm the story of Rahman
The most 'moderate' of my Omani and Gulf acquaintances tell me that wonderful Shariah means that freedom in this vein means your can walk around freely in your 'house', but outside the 'house' is just bad for you and therefore "verboten".
So what is it we are trying to achieve, if individual rights among those whom we have promoted liberty, are going to be secondary to Shariah?
Well it's their country.
If by allowing them this path to hell by our acts of obliteration of the Taliban and other like acts (Iraq), then we need to understand what this must mean for the way we have to conduct ourselves in the future.
While I believe that the best answer for american security is democracy everywhere, we cannot make the world america.
We need to decide if this is acceptable, or if, like many americans feel, the world is a contemptible morass, with many peoples unable to have individual rights and democracy.
This debate needs to occur.
Let me expound rather bloodlessy and coldly, and without any consideration of morality.
Imagine if our national course in 2001 was guided by the idea that where Shariah is supreme, democratic institutions should not even be thought of, or promoted, since individual rights must evaporate in this atmosphere.
Perhaps the most expeditious course, therefore, would have been to lay complete waste without a second's warning to afghanistan. Cheap. Effective. Total. Many americans (who come up in polls as disapproving of Bush) I know feel just this way today.
Instead after nearly $300 billion of our money, and thousands MORE american lives we have apostasy bringing death in afghanistan (?), and internecine struggles in Iraq to determine if Sunnis, Shia's, democrats or Gintsu wielders get the power.
Perhaps we should accept that Shariah and legally sanctioned murder for apostasy is just one step enroute to the final supremacy of individual rights.
Or is it the branding of official murder by the descendants of Jefferson and Madison in a long slide to new democracies becoming the mob rule of 7th century 'law'?
This debate in the USA is absolutely compulsory !!!
Now.
This is the 'kill 'em all' position, which, sadly, has a lot of merit.
ReplyDeleteWe should condemn their values and religious ideology unequivocally. That doesn’t mean we should try to eliminate it. Containment is another possibility. This, too, needs to be discussed.
ReplyDeleteWe don’t share common values with Islamic nations but there are times that we share common enemies. We allied ourselves with Stalin to fight Hitler even though it is a toss up who is worse. We might have to ally ourselves with Shiites in Iraq to fight Sunni jihadists (Al Qaeda) but let’s not pretend Shiites are our friends. And let’s be outspoken that we abhor their values as we know they abhor ours.
In the other thread many talk about changing Islamic culture. But that takes generations. And it won’t happen even then unless we are honest about what is wrong with Islam. We have yet to fight the ideological war. Military matters will only be stop-gap measures.
The ideological war will start, first and foremost, by those of us who’ve become educated about Islam (not by the government which in the end reflects popular thought.) We are in the initial stages. Here we, at IBA, are playing a role. We have to raise the consciousness of our fellow citizens about the nature of the enemy. That alone is a tall order.
Allowing any type of Islamic government to rule, is just setting up a disaster, that will force us to intervene again later.
ReplyDeleteUntil people finally understand that, these sharia states will continue to be created. And there will be no end to this war in site.
This idea of allowing people in these countries, to have their individual rights to elect their own style of government, is lacking in judgement and basic knowledge of why the ME is in such a horrible state.
For the most part, the people in the ME have no real knowledge of what freedom and democracy is. They have been spoon fed sharia or some type of similar government system since they were born. In order for anyone, to make a responsible decision on how to get out of their current situation, they must be taught about the alternatives. Complete hands off does not work. Mentoring and education must be a part of the process.
AA: Accepting Shariah? Even if that means that I become the king of the world, I won't accept or favor that.
ReplyDeleteI agree! Going back to what amounts to the Stone Age (for freedom) is something I refuse even to consider.
Christine: Allowing any type of Islamic government to rule, is just setting up a disaster, that will force us to intervene again later.
Until people finally understand that, these sharia states will continue to be created.
That's how I, too, see the situation.
All of the talk about occupation and puppet governments, just drives me mad. No, going into a country by force and in a hands-on fashion changing the situation, is not pretty. And no, it would not be the first choice for the majority of people in this world. But, everything else that has been tried to this point, has not worked. It also needs to be done in a more knowledgeable way and not in a cut and run time table.
ReplyDeleteI see these changes as necessary for the world's security and for the millions of people who's lives are better, once they are dead. To me, it is worth the cost, time and sacrifice. How long will we keep our heads in the sand? Until it is literally blown off?
In my opinion, this is like dragging a kicking and cursing teenager who has veered off the path and ended up in trouble. They may hate you in the beginning, but for those that are truly good people, they will thank you later.
So... is a democracy via mob rule (shariah in a muslim majority nation) a step forward?
ReplyDeleteIS it a valid waypoint for all the blood and treasure?
Is it a strategically valuable outcome?
Or is the right to vote meaningless without the protections of individual rights to religion and speech? Is that a mandatory minimum to be considered success? Or is it to much to 'expect'?
No, I do not believe that they should be allowed to vote for an Islamic government, period.
ReplyDeleteSharia does not allow for individual rights and protections, goes totally against what is needed to keep a dictatorship at bay.
These people vote for what they know, the only style of government that they have known. That is where mentorship and education comes in. Unless they are taught that they have been mistreated, they will continue to allow it to happen.
In that case you would, barring an innocent verdict in the Rahmann case, judge Afghanistan to be a failure, and Iraq an incipient one, even though our enemies were vanquished?
ReplyDeleteNot laying rhetorical traps, or leading the witness, just asking.
I'm not going to say that Afghanistan is an all out failure. But yes, this was a huge mistake and something needs to be done about it.
ReplyDeleteWhat? I can't say right now. But, something needs to be done. For one thing, those who have been making the decisions in regards to Afghanistan and Iraq, need to wake the hell up!! How long will they allow people to be hung there before they realize that a mistake was made? If they do realize it, what will they do? Wait until all hell breaks out again and then start over from scratch? It's not too late to try and deal with this. Leaving it as it is and walking away is not the answer.
I am so damn frustrated with all of this!! Why is it that we, the people who have no say so in how things are done, know the truth? And the one's who are calling the shots, don't?