Conversation With Liberals About Orlando Shooting
lib1 [10:53] It had nothing to do with religion other than his
internalized self loathing
lib2 [10:53] His religion may have pushed him over the edge, but you're
nicoenarg [10:53] @lib1: are you 100% sure it had nothing to do
with religion? (edited)
lib1 [10:53] @nicoenarg: I'm 99% sure it had nothing to do with
nicoenarg [10:54] ISIS is not a religion
lib2 [10:54] What pisses me off is, Christians have been persecuting
gays for decades, and now they're all upset a bunch of gays were
killed by a Muslim.
lib1 [10:54] Yeah
[10:54] I dunno I have my own weird set of issues with lgbt stuff
nicoenarg [10:55] wait, its pissing you off that people are upset
about this guy killing gays?
lib2 [10:55] no
nicoenarg [10:55] or its pissing you off that he killed them?
lib2 [10:55] no
nicoenarg [10:55] neither?
lib1 [10:55] It's pissing me off that they're making this about
reddit I'm just so angry. • /r/ainbow When that dude shot up Planned
Parenthood, we didn't say it was a result of his radical Christian
upbringing. But now, in a country where radical...
[10:55] that reddit post sums up how i feel
lib1 [10:55] And that he was killing people
nicoenarg [10:55] @lib1: what if it is about islam,
hypothetically speaking, not saying that ONLY ISLAM does it, but what
if this instance was?
lib1 [10:56] What if? Asshole-ery is not limited to a religion
nicoenarg [10:56] @lib2 thanks ima read it
lib1 [10:56] You don't blow people up because of religion
[10:56] You blow people up because you're a giant gaping asshole
nicoenarg [10:57] @lib1: how do you know that though? i am
actually asking this because i'm curious not because i'm attacking you
lib1 [10:57] Actually I don't really think that
[10:57] I think that people usually do bad things because they're
nicoenarg [10:57] religion to a lot of peoples in this world is the
primary guiding force, whether for good or bad
lib2 [10:57] if religion was a component, it doesn't matter. i'm not
going to be prejudiced against innocent muslims because of what this
lib1 [10:57] Like I was saying about the Tsarnevs recently
nicoenarg [10:58] @lib2 no but that's conflating ideology with people
[10:58] or is it not?
lib2 [10:58] what?
lib1 [10:58] There's a lot of evidence to suggest that Tamerlan
was an undiagnosed schizophrenic
lib2 [10:58] who is Tamerlan?
lib1 [10:58] The older brother in the Boston Marathon bombing
lib2 [10:59] oh right
nicoenarg [10:59] @lib2 saying that criticism of religion is somehow
prejudice against its followers is conflating the issue, IMO that's
what i was saying
lib1 [10:59] But yeah
lib2 [10:59] i'm saying that if islam was a motivating factor, it
lib1 [10:59] He didn't really decide to bomb the marathon
because of Islam
nicoenarg [11:00] but how do you know that?
[11:00] i mean, really, how do we know definitively that it isn't
lib1 [11:00] We don't
[11:00] He's dead
[11:00] We'll never know
lib2 [11:00] I don't see why it matters at all what his religion was.
lib1 [11:00] Normal people don't blow up crowds
nicoenarg [11:00] because there are people to whom their religion
[11:01] or the ideology they follow matters
[11:01] now whether that's misguided or not is different
lib2 [11:01] That's not very convincing.
lib1 [11:01] _throws up hands_ shit's complicated fuck
[11:01] Let's get fucked up on Skooma
lib2 [11:01] ok
nicoenarg [11:01] that's fine, i'm just saying that its not as simple
as "Islam is a religion of peace and NOTHING IS RELATED TO RELIGION"
[11:02] a thing invented by the West, weirdly enough actually
lib2 [11:02] I didn't say it's a religion of peace. I'm just saying
its totally irrelevant.
[11:02] There is nothing we can do with that information that can help
us, unless we start discriminating.
nicoenarg [11:03] yeah that's fine as your opinion, if its irrelevant
nicoenarg [11:04] here's what i'm getting at, the society you guys
grew up in religion probably doesn't shape every single aspect of your
daily lives (correct me if i'm wrong) but there are societies where it
lib1 [11:05] I'm of the opinion that most of these people are
just mentally ill. It has nothing to do with religion
[11:05] It's just a handy excuse
lib2 [11:05] Same.
nicoenarg [11:05] how would you define mental illness then?
lib2 [11:05] If nothing else, these shooters displayed a remarkable
deficiency in coping skills.
lib1 [11:05] yeah
juanvan [11:06] coping did they have a hard childhood?
lib1 [11:06] @juanvan: maybe
lib2 [11:06] A common thread across most of the shooters is they're
loners, without healthy social relationships.
[11:07] the Columbine shooters come to mind
juanvan [11:07] they had each other
nicoenarg [11:07] riyadh, saudi arabia: women are usually covered from
head to toe by law, a woman, while picking up her child, had her arm
uncovered accidentally, a mob of men shopping with their families
around the area started beating her up and called the religious po
po. the po po dragged the woman to jail. pretty common in that city,
are all of them mentally ill?
lib1 [11:08] @nicoenarg: that's not what we're talking about
lib2 [11:08] I don't think "mentally ill" is a label you can assign to
an entire society.
nicoenarg [11:08] but why not?
juanvan [11:08] that is crazzyyy
nicoenarg [11:08] if they act like lunatics?
lib1 [11:08] We're not talking about a society
lib2 [11:08] I don't care how they structure their society.
[11:08] It's none of our business.
lib1 [11:08] It's not socially acceptable to just shoot a ton
nicoenarg [11:08] but what if they import the same culture to your
[11:09] @lib1: it is, in the UAE and Saudi Arabia
(decapitation), where that is the punishment for being gay
[11:09] it is socially acceptable
lib1 [11:09] We're not talking about either of those places
nicoenarg [11:09] but we are talking about human beings finding that
[11:10] in other words, just because your society doesn't find it
appealing, doesn't mean no society does
lib2 [11:10] I thought we were talking about shooters in the USA.
lib1 [11:10] That's a special kind of fucked up and I don't
think that actually has anything to do with gay people
nicoenarg [11:10] yeah, and people in the USA are completely isolated
from other cultures?
lib2 [11:10] of course not.
nicoenarg [11:10] or is it a possibility they could like or even adopt
some of those practices?
[11:11] @lib1: sorry, what doesn't have anything to do with gay
lib1 [11:11] Rampant homophobia
[11:11] I think it has more to do with the insecurities of the
nicoenarg [11:11] probably, at the end of the day
[11:12] or because they think its EEEEVVVIILLL as they do in saudi
arabia and the uae (probably other countries as well, but i can't
speak for them)
lib1 [11:12] Look man if my existence scares you so much that
you want to kill me then I don't know what to tell you
[11:13] Sorry for liking dick sometimes?
nicoenarg [11:13] @juanvan: it is crazy, and that's not even the
craziest thing though
[11:13] @lib1: why are you apologizing for who you are?
[11:13] all i'm saying is that its not as simple as "nothing to do
with religion, it doesnt matter"
lib1 [11:13] At any rate I think we've veered _way_ off the
[11:14] Topic switch - the ribeye steak I got from the farmer's market
yesterday was _delicious_
lib2 [11:14] I want to talk about the shooting, not other muslim
countries and what they're doing.
nicoenarg [11:15] @lib2 i am still talking about the shooting, there's
a lot of context to it
lib2 [11:15] ok then
lib2 [11:15] i'm done for a while