Tuesday, March 14, 2006

Dhimmis and Incest

I hear a lot crap about Dhimmi-Dee, Dhimmi-Dum. Two things bother me. Read this first and I'll get to the incest in a bit.

First, when non-Muslims in the West start referring to themselves as potential Dhimmis. That's as silly as when progressive Muslims accept the title of 'apostate.' It seems that if you want to assert yourself -- whether you are a non-Muslim seeking to assert yourself over Islam, or a progressive Muslim seeking to assert yourself over extremist Muslims -- you should not use the terminology that your opponent would have you wear. When it comes to the battle of ideas, classification is the most important thing. I will never accept a fundo calling me an apostate. Even if that day I'm a practicing atheist. Think of it in terms of a basketball court. Your opponent says to you, "you're my bitch." You wouldn't go around the rest of the game saying to him, "I'm your bitch." Even if you are winning you probably wouldn't say that. I personally wouldn't. If *you* would, then maybe you really want to be a bitch, in which case I can't help you.

Second, there is a wide-spread misunderstanding about what constitutes a Dhimmi. Having been exposed to a lot of Islamic Law, both pre-modern and modern, I can say that there is not too much of agreement about it. Who constitutes a Dhimmi? Only People of the Book? Ok, but is that Jews and Christians only? Or are Hindus allowed in too since they have the Gita? What about Zoroastrians who don't really have a book but are mentioned in the Quran as People of the Book? Where can you impose Dhimmi status? In an Islamic Tyranny where the population has not participated in the laws? Or only in a democracy where the non-Muslims consent to it via a vote? Finally, it's noteworthy that Egypt, Pakistan, Indonesia, Malaysia, Iran don't have a "Dhimmi" category. Now, it is true, having gone to a Christian school in Pakistan, that non-Muslims are often treated like shit. But that's not the same thing as Dhimmi status. That's a form of bigotry and racism (in Pakistan the Christians are darker skinned), and in Pakistan it is also very closely linked to classism as well b/c Christians tend to be poor. We should note though that the Pakistani cricket team at the current time has a Christian and Hindu. That seems like progress to me. Anyway, to the point about incest.

I recently heard from an Islamic lawyer a very interesting anecdote which tends to reveal quite a bit about the potential flexibility of Islamic Law. A particular Umayyad Caliph consulted the great Mu'tazila (rationalist) thinker Hasan al-Basri, asking him whether he should do something about the practice of certain Zoroastrians who permitted mother and son to get married (here's your incest) if the father passed away prematurely. Hasan al-Basri responded that a Muslim ruler was not allowed to interfere with the customs of another community, even if he was their king, because other communities had different beliefs. This is very instructive. It should teach all the extremist Muslims today that Islamic Law is quite amenable to a flexible reading. Therefore, those Muslims who wish to make an Islamic Empire and then subjugate non-Muslims as Dhimmis are acting contrary to previous versions of Islamic Law. In short, under the standard they themselves wish to follow, they are wrong.

Personally I think the days of organizing a state under the banner of religion are numbered, and for good reason, and therefore, I would agitate towards redefining Islamic Political Theory towards a more 'secular' position. I have outlined some of these ideas in a post on my blog.

11 comments:

Baron Bodissey said...

Eteraz -- good to see you on ibloga!

No "potential dhimmi" for me. At most, "potential dead infidel".

A. Eteraz said...

Again, that's the same problem Baron.

Why are you embracing the term used by the jihadist? That's like when a black person says, "oh yeah, I'm a n*gger" to a white supremacist.

I think, and this is just my opinion, you should go with "seclar American." Which is what YOU are. I keep saying it over and over: Wafa Sultan was wrong in saying "I'm a heretic" (unless she's actually converted out of Islam). But if she did it to make a point, I don't think it was a good one. I would have sat there and told the fundo that he's the heretic. *We* have to define the debate and we're not doing it.

Epaminondas said...

I think that when we see actions like the Telegraph just apparently took the tendency is to label such reprehensible and cowardly behavior dhimmitude because it fulfills the QUALITIES that dhimmis thru the ages have demonstrated. And there's someting else..it's a perjorative superlative in the insult domain.

It's says the person so labeled is willing to pay extortion for the HOPE of a lack of violence being done to them.

It has more to do with us insulted cowards among US than muslims. It's a beautiful insult of untold dimensions

Pastorius said...

Question, Eteraz,
What do you think of the fact that this site is called Infidel Bloggers Alliance? Are we letting them negatively define us, or are we exulting in our freedom, and laughing our asses off at their ignorance?

You said that those extremist Muslims who would like to subjugate non-Muslims and relegate them to Dhimmi status are "acting contrary to previous versions of Islamic Law."

Maybe so, but I would point out that that is not the same as saying they are acting contrary to all previous versions of Islamic law, or previous interpretations of Islamic law.

And, I would add that from my memory of the literature of dhimmitude that in at least one interpretation, the choices are, convert, jizya, or die.

Whenever death enters into the equation as one of the choices, I would say that we are talking a form of coercion which is, in effect, slavery.

Kiddo said...

Point taken Eteraz. I do understand what you're saying. Being personally a person of mixed ancestry, with half my family being whites from Georgia and the rest Ionian Greeks from Turkey and having been raised on the tales of ancestral misery from both sides, I'm afraid I was just raised to fear being a dhimmi or being killed for being one, and General Sherman. At this point, I actually wish we still HAD General Sherman to take on those who would have us subjugated. And I see what you're saying. That's why I get so mad when I see a Muslim in public that I usually say that "I will never be a dhimmi". This probably just confuses them, but it's the same sort of fear, as you used the analogy earlier, that a black American would probably feel if they had been raised around only other blacks and suddenly found themselves in a Klan rally. It's just bloody scary, especially when some of the Muslim foreign men who frequented my college dorm (on their quest for BLONDE girls, sorry, I'll write about it on my blog later, I'll shut up about it, but seriously, that's what their interest was...) who in our talks in the lounge area even told me that I shouldn't be speaking my mind, and that I didn't know my place. As what, a woman or a non-Muslim, I don't know? But as the one girl that they were not interested in (I looked like their sisters they said), they didn't show me their best face as to the other girls. Just my experiences.

A. Eteraz said...

lol pastorius,

i didn't think of the infidel blogger's thing until after i had posted my response. shrug =)

i have to catch a train, i'll respond when i have more time.

epa,

if we're talking about the domain of insult, you know i'm down for whatever, cracker =) i have a really cool short story about insults i'll share one day. it's about jesus.

Pastorius said...

I hope Eteraz understands that Epa means the insult to be directed at the cowards among us non-Muslims.

We like to call them l'pussois.

Dag said...

Pim's Ghost, I thought you were writing that you're from Georgia, but now I see that you're from Georgia.

Will that ruin my best joke? Let me try anyway.

Q: How do you know your child is Georgian?

A; His first tooth is gold.

Uh, I'm not hearing any laughter. Maybe I didn't write it properly. Damn. Well, if I can't make it as a comedian I can always try being a gigalo.

Hey, what's so funny about that?

maccusgermanis said...

I embrace the title of infidel so that mankind may know that I shall accept to special status as a person "of the book." I have lived in peace with people the koran calls polytheist and will in freedom die with them.

This "redifinition of the debate" seems more about splintering fast consolidating alliances than addressing the very real and proven dangers of the core beliefs found in islam.

To Epa's explanation of dhimmitude I only wish to add, ditto.

Why doesn't A. eteraz take this moderation act over to faithfreedom.org?

Kiddo said...

Dag--I'm a Greek-a-Billy, baby! But I ranted about the whole "exotic looking" thing on my site and I feel much better now. I like the joke though. Heehee. That one just HAD to come out. It was driving me crazy. Now I can get back to more serious matters.

maccusgermanis said...

I embrace the title of infidel so that mankind may know that I shall accept to should read "no" special status as a person "of the book." I have lived in peace with people the koran calls polytheist and will in freedom die with them.