All of us, every single man, woman, and child on the face of the Earth were born with the same unalienable rights; to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. And, if the governments of the world can't get that through their thick skulls, then, regime change will be necessary.
Thursday, October 16, 2008
Devolution
Who can answer this question?
What countries in the last fifty years went from a democracy to an Islamic state?
Have any of them become an Islamic state through a democratic election?
No nation has ever went from being a democracy to a dictatorship without some use of force (even if the Dictator rose to power largely through democratic means) that goes for Islamic dictatorships as well. Once a dictator gains enough power, in a former democracy, he consolidates that power by silencing decent.
I don't know. This is not my field of expertise. I figure someone here is a history buff and will know the answer.
The reason I'm asking is when I talk to people about Jihadis gaining ground, I can tell it seems to them to be a vague, far-off possibility that these "terrorists" could ever gain anything. But they actually have, haven't they?
Didn't Lebanon used to be a democracy?
It would make the point much more real, authentic and urgent if I could say, "And in the last twenty years (or thirty years, or forty years), three democracies have become Islamic states."
I think there are some people who would say Turkey has proceeded from a Democracy to an Islamist state. And, it was achieved through a popular election.
I don't think, however, it is that clear that Turkey was ever really a model Democracy, and I don't think it is clear they are yet a truly Islamist state.
Additionally, one could make the argument that the Palestinian territories, particularly Gaza, have proceeded from Democracy to Islamist state.
I think Gaza is clearly an Islamist state. However, I don't think they were ever clearly a Democracy.
They got where they are by vote however, Jimmy Carter even observed their election and authorized it as legitimate.
The thing is, in my opinion, voting does not = Democracy. When we use the word Democracy in the West, we have in mind a Democratic Republic, by which we mean a Democratic state protected by a Constitution which upholds Western notions of Human Rights.
Gaza did not start with any such thing.
Neither did we ensure Iraq started with such a Constitutional system, and that is why Iraq is, in my opinion, destined to fail as a Democracy.
Additionally, I think both Malaysia and Indonesia are in the process of proceeding from being marginally Democratic states to becoming more Islamist.
And it seems that this is also happening in the Maldives.
I guess the answer to your question is it is never that clear. It isn't like it happens in one day. Or rarely so.
The Iranian Revolution happened very quickly, but it did not happen through Democracy.
I think a good example of the kind of change you are thinking about was what led to the establisment of Pakistan. Pakistan used to be part of India. Now it is a wholly Islamic state.
From Wikipedia:
Pakistan, officially the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, is a country located in South Asia, Southwest Asia, Middle East and converges with Central Asia and the Middle East.
The region forming modern Pakistan was home to the ancient Indus Valley Civilization and then, successively, recipient of ancient Vedic, Persian, Indo-Greek and Islamic cultures. The area has witnessed invasions and settlement by the Aryans, Persians, Greeks, Arabs, Turks, Afghans and the Mongols.[9] It was a part of British Raj from 1858 to 1947, when the Pakistan Movement for a state for Muslims, led by Muhammad Ali Jinnah and the Muslim League resulted in the independence and creation of the state of Pakistan, that comprised the provinces of Sindh, North-West Frontier Province, West Punjab, Balochistan and East Bengal. With the adoption of its constitution in 1956, Pakistan became an Islamic republic. In 1971, a civil war in East Pakistan resulted in the independence of Bangladesh.
The War of Independence 1857, also known as the Sepoy Mutiny, was the region's last major armed struggle against the foreign British Raj and it laid the foundations for the generally unarmed freedom struggle, led by the Hindu dominated Indian National Congress, in the twentieth century. The All India Muslim League rose to popularity in the late 1930s amid fears of under-representation and neglect of Muslims in politics. On 29 December 1930, Allama Iqbal's presidential address called for an autonomous "state in northwestern India for Indian Muslims, within the body politic of India."[19] Muhammad Ali Jinnah espoused the Two Nation Theory and led the Muslim League to adopt the Lahore Resolution of 1940 (popularly known as the Pakistan Resolution), which ultimately led to the formation of an independent Pakistan. The Indian independence movement, led by Mahatma Gandhi, demanded freedom from British rule. In early 1947, Britain, coming under strong pressure from other Western nations to end its violent suppression of the freedom movement, decided to end its rule of India.
In June 1947, the nationalist leaders of British India — including Nehru and Abul Kalam Azad on behalf of the Congress, Jinnah representing the Muslim League, B. R. Ambedkar representing the Untouchable community, and Master Tara Singh representing the Sikhs — agreed to the proposed terms of transfer of power and independence. The modern state of Pakistan was established on 14 August 1947 (27 Ramadan 1366 in the Islamic Calendar), carved out of the two Muslim-majority wings in the eastern and northwestern regions of British India and comprising the provinces of Balochistan, East Bengal, the North-West Frontier Province, West Punjab and Sindh. The controversial division of the provinces of Punjab and Bengal set the stage for communal riots across India and Pakistan — millions of Muslims moved to Pakistan and millions of Hindus and Sikhs moved to India.
Anon, that's a good resource, thank you. It doesn't answer the question, but it's a really great web site that I didn't know about, and that we can use for reference. Excellent.
Who can answer this question?
10 comments:
And what about states that have become LESS democratic over the last few years and more Islamic? Like Egypt and Turkey.
Curious - Is there a specific reason you chose 50 years?
Can you think of any country in the last 1400 years that became an Islamic nation without any use of force?
Anonymous,
No nation has ever went from being a democracy to a dictatorship without some use of force (even if the Dictator rose to power largely through democratic means) that goes for Islamic dictatorships as well. Once a dictator gains enough power, in a former democracy, he consolidates that power by silencing decent.
Great question, CW. My hats off to you because this is really a central question for our time.
So, what's the answer?
I don't know. This is not my field of expertise. I figure someone here is a history buff and will know the answer.
The reason I'm asking is when I talk to people about Jihadis gaining ground, I can tell it seems to them to be a vague, far-off possibility that these "terrorists" could ever gain anything. But they actually have, haven't they?
Didn't Lebanon used to be a democracy?
It would make the point much more real, authentic and urgent if I could say, "And in the last twenty years (or thirty years, or forty years), three democracies have become Islamic states."
I think there are some people who would say Turkey has proceeded from a Democracy to an Islamist state. And, it was achieved through a popular election.
I don't think, however, it is that clear that Turkey was ever really a model Democracy, and I don't think it is clear they are yet a truly Islamist state.
Additionally, one could make the argument that the Palestinian territories, particularly Gaza, have proceeded from Democracy to Islamist state.
I think Gaza is clearly an Islamist state. However, I don't think they were ever clearly a Democracy.
They got where they are by vote however, Jimmy Carter even observed their election and authorized it as legitimate.
The thing is, in my opinion, voting does not = Democracy. When we use the word Democracy in the West, we have in mind a Democratic Republic, by which we mean a Democratic state protected by a Constitution which upholds Western notions of Human Rights.
Gaza did not start with any such thing.
Neither did we ensure Iraq started with such a Constitutional system, and that is why Iraq is, in my opinion, destined to fail as a Democracy.
Additionally, I think both Malaysia and Indonesia are in the process of proceeding from being marginally Democratic states to becoming more Islamist.
And it seems that this is also happening in the Maldives.
I guess the answer to your question is it is never that clear. It isn't like it happens in one day. Or rarely so.
The Iranian Revolution happened very quickly, but it did not happen through Democracy.
I think a good example of the kind of change you are thinking about was what led to the establisment of Pakistan. Pakistan used to be part of India. Now it is a wholly Islamic state.
From Wikipedia:
Pakistan, officially the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, is a country located in South Asia, Southwest Asia, Middle East and converges with Central Asia and the Middle East.
The region forming modern Pakistan was home to the ancient Indus Valley Civilization and then, successively, recipient of ancient Vedic, Persian, Indo-Greek and Islamic cultures. The area has witnessed invasions and settlement by the Aryans, Persians, Greeks, Arabs, Turks, Afghans and the Mongols.[9] It was a part of British Raj from 1858 to 1947, when the Pakistan Movement for a state for Muslims, led by Muhammad Ali Jinnah and the Muslim League resulted in the independence and creation of the state of Pakistan, that comprised the provinces of Sindh, North-West Frontier Province, West Punjab, Balochistan and East Bengal. With the adoption of its constitution in 1956, Pakistan became an Islamic republic. In 1971, a civil war in East Pakistan resulted in the independence of Bangladesh.
The War of Independence 1857, also known as the Sepoy Mutiny, was the region's last major armed struggle against the foreign British Raj and it laid the foundations for the generally unarmed freedom struggle, led by the Hindu dominated Indian National Congress, in the twentieth century. The All India Muslim League rose to popularity in the late 1930s amid fears of under-representation and neglect of Muslims in politics. On 29 December 1930, Allama Iqbal's presidential address called for an autonomous "state in northwestern India for Indian Muslims, within the body politic of India."[19] Muhammad Ali Jinnah espoused the Two Nation Theory and led the Muslim League to adopt the Lahore Resolution of 1940 (popularly known as the Pakistan Resolution), which ultimately led to the formation of an independent Pakistan. The Indian independence movement, led by Mahatma Gandhi, demanded freedom from British rule. In early 1947, Britain, coming under strong pressure from other Western nations to end its violent suppression of the freedom movement, decided to end its rule of India.
In June 1947, the nationalist leaders of British India — including Nehru and Abul Kalam Azad on behalf of the Congress, Jinnah representing the Muslim League, B. R. Ambedkar representing the Untouchable community, and Master Tara Singh representing the Sikhs — agreed to the proposed terms of transfer of power and independence. The modern state of Pakistan was established on 14 August 1947 (27 Ramadan 1366 in the Islamic Calendar), carved out of the two Muslim-majority wings in the eastern and northwestern regions of British India and comprising the provinces of Balochistan, East Bengal, the North-West Frontier Province, West Punjab and Sindh. The controversial division of the provinces of Punjab and Bengal set the stage for communal riots across India and Pakistan — millions of Muslims moved to Pakistan and millions of Hindus and Sikhs moved to India.
Excellent answer, JP. Thank you.
Are there any other history buffs out there who want to weigh in?
www.historyofjihad.com
Anon, that's a good resource, thank you. It doesn't answer the question, but it's a really great web site that I didn't know about, and that we can use for reference. Excellent.
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