To our congregation this is a college town. If not, it's a medical center town.
Last night we welcomed from out of town, a rabbi who also teaches comparative religion at a university, with a specialty in Islam. He has a PhD in this.
This congregation went about 85-15 for Obama. As far as I know, my wife and I were the only loud voices willing to be identified as not for Obama. Which reminds me that I meant to ask another professor who told me in April that Hillary was a sociopath and we needed Obama, how she feels now that a sociopath is going to do most of our soft power negotiations with the rest of the world, and most of the sociopath's buds are running the new regime. Perhaps she will appreciate the sardonic humor?
I have people skills.
The good news
Last night was intended as an intro to the Quran, and next week this prof is coming back to talk about HISTORY from the madman (as Maimonedes always referred to him) to the present.
I have questions...and if you have any ...
epaminondas_AT_roadrunner_DOT_com (screw off, bots)
Last night we actually got into ...antisemitism in the Quran (YES, the man says)
Is there violence promoted in the Quran? (YES, the man says...bbbb, but there are also injunctions towards peace)
Since we are moving in this congregation towards a conversation with the mosque inside the university, I asked if the Quran is the word of you know, and if he says the jews are evil, doomed, and go have fun traumatizing and smiting their necks when needs be, how will we have a real and valid conversation in MUTUAL respect? The man said it's going to be a problem
Someone asked where are the modern muslims who are appalled at all we see, like Mumbai. The professor intoned that they are there expressing their contempt in small doses in 'cutting edge' prayers groups ...I have a feeling he is thinking about people like the incredible and brave Irshad Manji who has lead services, but he was trying and I didn't want to be a complete contrarian, and hold his feet to the fire on that one in terms of numbers. Or maybe he had in mind Muqtedar Khan who is against the violence, but won't sit on a dais with Israelis who have served, and may really be arguing about means and not ends. I hope he is not thinking about our friend Tariq Ramadan who professes tolerance and liberalism but as yet will not call for the public end to the death for apostasy hideousness.
The professor seems to believe that many of the ills we have seen are the product from the 6th century on of real world considerations. For instance, Khaybar and the Banu Qurayzah slaughter were not because they were filled with jews, but because they were traitors to the madman. However, and I'll ask this as the events of history unfold next week....what difference does that make since the Quran insists such actions are what god wants, and the Quran is...well...you know, immutable and from the perfect being?
He also has good feelings about the Sufi. But maybe that is a comparative feeling ..say compared to our salafi friends. I'm not sure, but I will ask. This one is worth pinning down.
But he delivered a stunning piece of honesty to a very innocent question from congregant..which was..and I paraphrase "We have all heard about the calls to violence and jihad in the Quran ...are there calls to peace between peoples"
And this rabbi and professor, then explained and outlined to the crowd which heard the answer with a slight but audible intake of breath, the principles of Islamic Peace, and where they all fit into that equation.
We ended right there.
Good Show, prof. Carry on.
Even though the questions indicated that this left of what is the progressive center crowd was really in the right place to look towards a conversation, and a real one, with university Imams and members, I still feel like the oncologist with bad news about the prognosis.
My thesis is this:
Any cordial, mutually tolerant conversation we can have in full honesty with muslims requires that these muslims be realistic SOMEHOW about the provenance of the Quran. For if the word of god is that jews are evil, what is there left to discuss but where we plant all those boxthorn trees
My caveat...and sole ray of light .. many of you know this but I will state it again .. my experience is based on 6 years of direct anonymous contact on an arab forum in the persian gulf with about an 80% salafi, 20% other mixed crowd. There were 4 or 5 westerners, one of whom LOATHED the west. Over those years I spoke with about 1,000 people, men and women, many continuously. The 'creme de la creme'. Educated. Professional. Oil. Banks. IT. Security. One imam. One person I believe was in the Iranian public affairs ministry. This went on until the ME govt involved, throttled it. To a person, man or woman, they would all agree that anyone "realistic SOMEHOW about the provenance of the Quran" is no longer a muslim. In fact they would say that there is only one Islam and it's the one we don't like.
Here in the west I have had lengthy professional contact with two 'muslim' cardiac researchers (one in KY and one in Vancouver, from respectively, Pakistan and Egypt) who do not know each other. Yet they both professed to me after 9/11 (actually after the absurdity about the 4000 jews not showing showing up at the WTC) ..'now you know why I had to get out of there, to escape the MADNESS'. Maybe because they are scientists they think in another manner. Maybe because they are HERE they voice it. I do not know. Neither is a regular mosque attendant ..not them or their families. In KY it is because of what the Imam had to say ( I assumed this means what we recgonize as the ascendant form of Islam ..salafi). I include their religion in quotes for them because I have a feeling to many if not all of the people I spoke with for those years, neither of them would meet the requirements they had for being a faithful and full member of that religion. And that IS the center of the problem.
But maybe, for those here, not compelled to be part of the Salafi funded education and mosques there can be something else.
Maybe.
Last night we welcomed from out of town, a rabbi who also teaches comparative religion at a university, with a specialty in Islam. He has a PhD in this.
This congregation went about 85-15 for Obama. As far as I know, my wife and I were the only loud voices willing to be identified as not for Obama. Which reminds me that I meant to ask another professor who told me in April that Hillary was a sociopath and we needed Obama, how she feels now that a sociopath is going to do most of our soft power negotiations with the rest of the world, and most of the sociopath's buds are running the new regime. Perhaps she will appreciate the sardonic humor?
I have people skills.
The good news
- The temple was filled beyond seating capacity
- The presentation was, reasonable on the 'we can live together' side, but realistic, UNSPARINGLY SO..
- The questions were sharp, unyielding and iron hard. A shock.
Last night was intended as an intro to the Quran, and next week this prof is coming back to talk about HISTORY from the madman (as Maimonedes always referred to him) to the present.
I have questions...and if you have any ...
epaminondas_AT_roadrunner_DOT_com (screw off, bots)
Last night we actually got into ...antisemitism in the Quran (YES, the man says)
Is there violence promoted in the Quran? (YES, the man says...bbbb, but there are also injunctions towards peace)
Since we are moving in this congregation towards a conversation with the mosque inside the university, I asked if the Quran is the word of you know, and if he says the jews are evil, doomed, and go have fun traumatizing and smiting their necks when needs be, how will we have a real and valid conversation in MUTUAL respect? The man said it's going to be a problem
Someone asked where are the modern muslims who are appalled at all we see, like Mumbai. The professor intoned that they are there expressing their contempt in small doses in 'cutting edge' prayers groups ...I have a feeling he is thinking about people like the incredible and brave Irshad Manji who has lead services, but he was trying and I didn't want to be a complete contrarian, and hold his feet to the fire on that one in terms of numbers. Or maybe he had in mind Muqtedar Khan who is against the violence, but won't sit on a dais with Israelis who have served, and may really be arguing about means and not ends. I hope he is not thinking about our friend Tariq Ramadan who professes tolerance and liberalism but as yet will not call for the public end to the death for apostasy hideousness.
The professor seems to believe that many of the ills we have seen are the product from the 6th century on of real world considerations. For instance, Khaybar and the Banu Qurayzah slaughter were not because they were filled with jews, but because they were traitors to the madman. However, and I'll ask this as the events of history unfold next week....what difference does that make since the Quran insists such actions are what god wants, and the Quran is...well...you know, immutable and from the perfect being?
He also has good feelings about the Sufi. But maybe that is a comparative feeling ..say compared to our salafi friends. I'm not sure, but I will ask. This one is worth pinning down.
But he delivered a stunning piece of honesty to a very innocent question from congregant..which was..and I paraphrase "We have all heard about the calls to violence and jihad in the Quran ...are there calls to peace between peoples"
And this rabbi and professor, then explained and outlined to the crowd which heard the answer with a slight but audible intake of breath, the principles of Islamic Peace, and where they all fit into that equation.
We ended right there.
Good Show, prof. Carry on.
Even though the questions indicated that this left of what is the progressive center crowd was really in the right place to look towards a conversation, and a real one, with university Imams and members, I still feel like the oncologist with bad news about the prognosis.
My thesis is this:
Any cordial, mutually tolerant conversation we can have in full honesty with muslims requires that these muslims be realistic SOMEHOW about the provenance of the Quran. For if the word of god is that jews are evil, what is there left to discuss but where we plant all those boxthorn trees
My caveat...and sole ray of light .. many of you know this but I will state it again .. my experience is based on 6 years of direct anonymous contact on an arab forum in the persian gulf with about an 80% salafi, 20% other mixed crowd. There were 4 or 5 westerners, one of whom LOATHED the west. Over those years I spoke with about 1,000 people, men and women, many continuously. The 'creme de la creme'. Educated. Professional. Oil. Banks. IT. Security. One imam. One person I believe was in the Iranian public affairs ministry. This went on until the ME govt involved, throttled it. To a person, man or woman, they would all agree that anyone "realistic SOMEHOW about the provenance of the Quran" is no longer a muslim. In fact they would say that there is only one Islam and it's the one we don't like.
Here in the west I have had lengthy professional contact with two 'muslim' cardiac researchers (one in KY and one in Vancouver, from respectively, Pakistan and Egypt) who do not know each other. Yet they both professed to me after 9/11 (actually after the absurdity about the 4000 jews not showing showing up at the WTC) ..'now you know why I had to get out of there, to escape the MADNESS'. Maybe because they are scientists they think in another manner. Maybe because they are HERE they voice it. I do not know. Neither is a regular mosque attendant ..not them or their families. In KY it is because of what the Imam had to say ( I assumed this means what we recgonize as the ascendant form of Islam ..salafi). I include their religion in quotes for them because I have a feeling to many if not all of the people I spoke with for those years, neither of them would meet the requirements they had for being a faithful and full member of that religion. And that IS the center of the problem.
But maybe, for those here, not compelled to be part of the Salafi funded education and mosques there can be something else.
Maybe.
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