Video - Pope meets with religious leaders, highlights his commitment to inter-religion.
The Pope then greeted those belonging to other religious traditions,first of all the Muslims who “adore the one, living, and merciful God and who call upon Him in prayer.” Source.
"But they were deceptive, and Allah was deceptive, for Allah is the best of deceivers." (Wamakaroo wamakara Allahu waAllahu khayru al-makireena)!
37 comments:
But he made a point of stressing the respect between men and women in all religions, by stopping at mid-sentence, and repeating the same sentence.
I'm still hopeful. He maybe starting by stressing unity, but we'll know his true intentions depending on his approach to the persecution of Christians and other minorities.
He criticized Benedict for his Regensburg speech, and he said Muslims worship the same God as Christians and Jews.
One more and it is a trifecta.
There can still be some hope, perhaps, but it is not looking good for the man ... or for us.
The God of Christianity and Islam are not the same!
How much worse can the blasphemy get?
More words from Pope Francis:
" I am thinking particularly of dialogue with Islam."
Blah, blah, blah.
Yeah, he's a crypto-Muslim, hell-bent on ushering in the new global caliphate... (eye roll)
Maybe a reflection on how Christ preached his Gospel and engaged with the misguided would help us out here...
"No doubt he will play a part in destroying the Catholic Church."
Isn't that what we want? The destruction of the Whore of Babylon?
"When two Jesuits meet, the Devil appears to make a threesome" ...old French saying.
Silverfiddle,
I have re-thought the assertion I made in my title. The fact is, the Cathechism of the Catholic Church does declare Islam to be an Abrahamic Faith.
Therefore, the Pope is not technically a blasphemer according to Catholic Doctrine.
I think, however, it was not Jesus who tailored his message to local customs so much as it was Paul.
Jesus seems to have used metaphors which were common to humanity. Paul is the one who tailored a Philosophical message to the Greeks.
However, that being said, his metaphor ceased at the doors of Truth.
Islam's God, Allah, is not the same God, whatever the Cathechism says, whatever the Pope says.
I think you would agree with that, right?
"I think you would agree with that, right?"
Of course not.
You speak as if there were more than one God. There is not.
Different faiths may apprehend Him more or less, but there is only one God.
I believe Muhammad got a lot of it terribly, horribly wrong. Indeed many stories from the Quran read like fractured fairy tale versions of OT and NT sayings and stories. But Muhammad based his teachings, regardless of how distorted, on what he heard from Christian and Jewish traders.
Islam did not spring from Buddhism or Shintoism, is sprang from Hebraic and Christian teachings. So in that respect, we can say Islam worships the One True God, no matter how imperfectly.
Saying that Muslims worship The One True God, but that they do it wrongly, is not blasphemy, because saying so speaks no ill or irreverence against Our Lord in heaven.
Anyway, we're not going to agree. Just thought I'd throw my two cents in...
@Silverfiddle,
Distorted view of Islam's history but that's alright I guess.
Islam mainly sprang from paganism. The Qureish were pagans. Mohammed's parents and grandparents were pagans and all that Mohammed knew was paganism. And all that Mohammed taught was paganism intermixed with some Jewish and Christian ideas. In fact, Islam is closer to today's Hinduism than it is to Christianity or Judaism.
(Mohammed's ploy to sell Islam as a continuation of Judaism failed miserably and he started to stem any Jewish teachings out of his message. Your knowledge of Islamic history seems very limited.)
Any "Christian" teaching that Mohammed did get was far from orthodox since most of the Christian sects around Mecca and Yathrib (later called Medina) were actively involved with their own brand of paganism. Let's not forget that Mary's idol was proudly displayed in the Kaaba along with other idols. And Christians used to take part in the pagan Hajj festival by worshiping all the idols displayed in the Kaaba (tradition says there were 360 idols, one for each day, but there is no concrete evidence supporting that).
As for the following:
You speak as if there were more than one God. There is not.
Different faiths may apprehend Him more or less, but there is only one God.
So when God punishes his people for worshiping other gods He's just getting His panties in a twist and should just learn that there is only Him who's God and should cut the people some slack?
If Muslims worship a god, whether a creation of Mohammed's mind or a distortion of the real God, who not only contradicts the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, but mocks Him and despises Him, then either we have to accept that God is schizophrenic or that Muslims worship a god who is not the one true God. Whether that god of theirs is real or not is not the point. If God demands that "other" gods not be worshiped then there's no room for debate.
Now of course the sentence "but Paul says..." to counter my argument above is presented a lot but to that I would say, "but I would much rather listen to God than Paul."
Sorry Siverfiddle, yes, there is one God: the God the Jews is the same as the God of the Christians. But Allah is something quite different. He is the Moon God of the nomadic Arabic tribes. And if we believe in the goodness of our God, we have to think that Allah is nothing by the opposite of goodness. He is evil. Islam is not an Abrahamic religion. The fact that one Arab came up with the idea of transforming one of the politheistic gods into an "Abrahamic" one is nothing but part of the delusions of a mad man. The problem is that like in the case of Hitler, this mad man had followers, and an evil "religion" was created.
As for the Pope, I still have faith. The world is at a terrible place. The president of the free world is a strong supporter of the Muslim Brotherhood and all the evil it represents. He put Netayahu against a wall and forced him to apologize to Turkey for doing nothing but defending his country.
If the Pope starts an open attack against Islam, the gates will open and he will face not only attacks from the press and all the dhimmi governments, and people who believe of freedom of religion. As a good Jesuit, he will act as a fox. He knows that honey is more attractive than a baseball bat. He will take his time, but is not wasting any. The following link speaks for itself. Take a look at who were his guests at this very special Mass at St. Peter's tomb in the crypt under the main altar of St. Peter's Basilica. He will protect and speak for the persecuted Christians of the world.
http://www.aina.org/news/20130323001249.htm
Maybe a reflection on how Christ preached his Gospel and engaged with the misguided would help us out here...
Okay cool.
Matthew 15:21-28, Jesus equates a Canaanite woman to a dog as opposed to Israelites whom he calls "the children".
Matthew 21:12 Jesus overturns the tables of money changers and benches of those selling doves. This is at temple courts, not the Holy of Holies.
Matthew 23:33 Jesus calls the Pharisees "snakes, brood of vipers" which is equivalent of calling someone's mother a "bit*h" these days.
etc.
Jesus rarely had a kind word to say about those who were committing injustice against his people. Let me rephrase, he NEVER had a kind word to say about them. He never appeased them. never tried to please them and never ever worried that he shouldn't say anything that might offend them.
As for the lost sheep of Israel I hope you're not naive enough to compare them with Muslims.
@Charles Martel,
I hope you're right about the pope. I was one of the first people who said that we should give him a chance and not judge him right off the bat but the more he opens his mouth the more he sounds like another appeaser who has no principles.
@Pastorius,
I have re-thought the assertion I made in my title. The fact is, the Cathechism of the Catholic Church does declare Islam to be an Abrahamic Faith.
I know you're only paraphrasing the Catechism of the Catholic Church but Islam is an Abrahamic faith exactly like the Church of Satan is Christianity.
And I will quote Charles Martel from above:
The fact that one Arab came up with the idea of transforming one of the politheistic gods into an "Abrahamic" one is nothing but part of the delusions of a mad man.
@Anon, how did you conclude, beyond the shadow of a doubt, the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon?
Nicoenarg:
There are just as many passages (probably more, but I haven't kept a tally), where Jesus patiently teaches people God's true message.
He didn't run down and tackle the rich young man who refused his advice about selling all he had and giving it to the poor.
He was very charitable to the woman at the well, someone he ritualistically should not be touching or even talking to.
He caused her and many in her town to convert, and he didn't once accuse them of worshiping a false god (although they were.)
How you approach others and the tone you employ is important. That is what I meant by my original comment.
How many Muslims have you brought to Christ?
As to the arguments about a "false God." It is a distinction without a difference, and it is unprovable whether they are worshipping and misapprehending God quite badly, or if they are indeed worshiping a false God.
I get your rhetorical questions on the subject, you won't get very far in a dialog if you get in someone's face and insist their god is false. It is a given and it is understood by all parties that Islam and Christianity hold mutually exclusive views.
How many Muslims have you brought to Christ?
Last time I checked I wasn't in a competition ("and he's brought 23, let's break a bottle of champagne!").
All of the Muslims that I know who have come to Christ did so because they understood that they followed a lying, deceiving, scheming god (whether that be Mohammed or their distortion of God) and only then did they bring themselves to questioning the rest of what they believed and then they understood the need for Christ.
I don't want to get far in any dialog by giving up on principles set out in the Bible. And I am not talking about ritualistically unclean people; I am talking about a religion that has openly declared "war" against Christianity (except in the Sunna its considered defensive war since Christians, by not embracing Islam, have according to Allah declared war on Islam). No, not Osama Bin Laden or Zawahiri or any other terrorists out there, I am talking about the Quran, Hadiths and the Sira.
You mentioned the Samaritan woman at the well. You may have forgotten but Jesus did NOT twist his words to suit her needs. The woman herself was humble enough and didn't try to pull a knife on him or try to get him killed (as the Pharisees and Sadducees did on many occasions). Jesus told the woman plain and simple: "You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews." Not: "Let us all be friends and kiss each other on the cheek and then we can worry about the details."
Secondly, again, let us not forget who the Samaritans were. No one here is debating about whether the Pharisees were right in laying down rules about who you could associate with and who you couldn't. I am talking about a religion that preaches a god who is not what the one true God is. A religion that preaches a god who is counter to what the one true God is.
As to the arguments about a "false God." It is a distinction without a difference, and it is unprovable whether they are worshipping and misapprehending God quite badly, or if they are indeed worshiping a false God.
Huh? Un-provable? One careful reading of the Quran and the Hadiths leaves nothing "unclear" about this.
Oh and while we're at it. I never said Jesus was cussing at people like a sailor wherever he went. What I was referring to was your comment about "following Jesus" and the insinuation that if we did so we'd automatically melt like ice-cream on fire.
Jesus's character is not one-sided "let me love you no matter what you do". Jesus stood up against injustices and against evil without bending his own principles just as much as he helped those who needed him.
Appeasing Muslims and claiming they "adore the one, living and merciful God and who call upon Him in prayer", when its the exact opposite that they do, while they're killing our brothers and sisters without regard or mercy in Pakistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, etc is akin to Jesus appeasing and pleasing the Pharisees, the Sadduccees and the Romans while they murdered "the lost sheep of Israel" without mercy.
The First Commandment:
"I am the LORD thy God
Thou shalt have no other gods before me."
In the Demonology, as I understand it, there are other "gods", spirits, who represent various forces. Allah is one of them. I am somewhat sure his real identity is Satan.
Therefore, if I am correct, those who worship Allah are worshipping Satan.
Apparently no one had told God that there really weren't any other gods around when he laid down the first commandment.
I think it's interesting to note that, while we all have spent time considering Islam, we are all of strongly divergent opinions as to the true identity of "Allah."
I like all you guys, and I do respect your opinions.
Nico says Islam is paganism.
Silverfiddle says it is Abrahamic, but distorted.
Charles says it is the Moon God.
I say it is Satanism, more than likely.
There, now that we have gotten that out into the open...
LOL
Lol.
Well I thought we were debating whether Allah = God of the Bible.
We can also argue about who Allah is: chief Meccan god who had three daughers, Allat, Uzza and Manat. He was at times associated with the crescent moon. Earlier evidence about this god suggests "he" was actually a "she".
etc.
I went back and read the linked source, and I don't see where the pope twisted words or compromised Christian beliefs.
He extended a hand to Muslims, hopefully with the end in mind of working to protect beleaguered Christians who have the misfortune of living in muslim lands.
Pastorius: What I am saying is that I don't know, and neither does anyone else. It doesn't matter.
We already understand that the two religions hold little in common other than belief in a deity that created us, who hears our prayers, and who will ultimately judge us.
Someone taking Muslims at their word that their religion is Abrahamic does not commit blasphemy, by the definition of the word, for it takes nothing away from God and does not show contempt for Him.
Now, if Francis had affirmed their theology, or accepted their doctrine that Jesus was just a man, a simple prophet, then yes, that would be blasphemy.
Silver fiddle .....I don't remember the crusaders following the Popes call to deliver the holy land from the infidels, saying they prayed to the true only God.
I thought the pope was supposed to be infallible so which one is right?
Perhaps Bednedicts view didn't suit 'the new World Order'.
I for one Agree with his qoute: "“Violence does not build up the kingdom of God, the kingdom of humanity. On the contrary, it is a favorite instrument of the Antichrist, however idealistic its religious motivation may be,” Pope Benedict XVI."......I wonder which religion he was talking about?
The fact that he reaches out to China has of course nothing to do with the fact that the New 'General' of the Jesuits used to be at the head of the Asia department?
I for one don't recognize this 'Church' anymore.
"Perhaps Bednedicts view didn't suit 'the new World Order'."
OK. I get it now...
Silverfiddle,
Do you believe in demons? Do you believe in Satan?
If so, who do you think Allah is?
The Pope is adhering to Catholic theology. But, it does no one any good to lie to Muslims when they are making war against us in the name of Allah.
Silverfiddle,
You say, "What I am saying is it doesn't matter."
I think you are saying it does not matter whether Allah is a mood god, Satan, or whoever. God is bigger than Allah.
Yes, that may be true. But, here's something to consider. I think this verse pertains:
1 Corinthians 10:25–32
25 oEat whatever is sold in the meat market without raising any question on the ground of conscience. 26 For p“the earth is the Lord’s, and the fullness thereof.” 27 If one of the unbelievers invites you to dinner and you are disposed to go, qeat whatever is set before you without raising any question on the ground of conscience. 28 But if someone says to you, “This has been offered in sacrifice,” then do not eat it, for the sake of the one who informed you, and for the sake of conscience— 29 I do not mean ryour conscience, but his.
http://ibloga.blogspot.com/2012/03/satan-says-hatred-and-loathing-of-jews.html
Pastorius,I agree with you as to the Satanic figure of Allah. Yeah, he was the Moon God, and the most powerful god of the pagan Arabs. But even his apparition to Mohammad in the mountain was brutal, terrifying, and certainly not a godly apparition. After reading the Islamic eschatology I´m even more convinced of his darkness.
Oh, and yes. I believe in Satan, darkness, and evil. Because if we believe in the goodness and purity of our Lord Jesus Christ, we also have to believe in the counter forces: evil and hatred.
Yes. I believe in Satan, and not some conceptual metaphor of evil, but a real "god of this world," Who "roam(s) the earth, patrolling it."
I do not know what Muslims worship. It's not for me to try to categorize their god, be he false or the One True God.
All I know is our beliefs are not compatible. Jesus is not just a great man and a prophet. He is the Christ, our savior, God walking among man.
The pope is not at war with anyone, and he didn't lie to anyone.
You have made it a point of debate, but religious scholars categorize Islam as an Abrahamic faith. Go take it up with them. I am not the one who classified it as such, but a perusal of Bible Colleges, Divinity Schools, scholarly articles and other theological founts way over my head all classify Islam as the pope has classified it.
I'll grant you that doesn't necessarily make it so, but he was not out of the mainstream saying what he said.
You are right. The scholars and religious leaders of the world are in agreement that Islam is as legitimate a faith as any other. It is to be afforded respect accordingly.
This blog is about not heeding that dictate.
;-)
All religions think they are the right religion. Who's to say who is really right?
Certainly not me.
I may be wrong after all.
What I have tried to do is give you Biblical evidence that Allah is Satan and Islam is Satanism disguised.
It is not necessary to believe the way I believe in order for you to have a relationship with God. That much is obvious.
And, I have already conceded that the Pope is speaking from the Cathechism. He is doctrinally sound.
Nicoenarg,
Islam is an Abrahamic faith exactly like the Church of Satan is Christianity.
I've never heard it put that way.
I think that you have a very valid point.
How do we determine that all religions or certain religions worship the same God?
Were the worshipers of Baal worshiping the same God as the Israelites?
If so, why did God command Elijah to condemn the followers of Baal?
Christianity clearly differs from Judaism and Islam -- the issue of the divinity of Jesus Christ and His propitiation for the sins of those who accept Him as Lord being the major doctrinal differences.
As for this religion or that religion having sprung from a common ancestor, that may well be so. But is the "second religion" the same as the original one? I think not.
Quite a discussion of this topic at Jihad Watch -- worth looking at.
Nico,
Islam is an Abrahamic faith exactly like the Church of Satan is Christianity.
Yes, that is well put. I did not get it the first time I read it. But, you are right.
Islam is an Abrhamic Faith. It is in the Bible. It is the religion of Ba'al, Moloch, and Satan.
Here is a link which I put through the Google translator. The original article was published in an unapologetic leftist newspaper in Argentina. One of their journalists: Horacio Verbinsky, a shameless Marxist has been orchestrating the attack on the Pope, who is also an instrument of the administration. This is an article by another journalist. The article was titled "Perdón" (Sorry)but the editors changed it to "Dudas" (Doubts)
http://santiagoodonnell.blogspot.com.ar/2013_03_01_archive.html#4681564589629822529
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