This is one for the courts. To me it’s a legitimate question that should be asked. But it should be played out in the courts. When we allow it to be OJ’ed (I coined it! I coined it!) we risk allowing potentially far more damaging and reaching issues to slip under the radar. Do you think maybe that’s why Obama is stonewalling on this?
If he’d just produce the damn thing we could let it rest and move on, one way or another. But no, he keeps tying it up and folks keep going after it when those energies could be better used combating all the czars or the Obamacare or the Stimuless or his Socialist and Marxist pals around the globe.
Let it get to a courtroom. Let a (hopefully) impartial judge hear it and decide. Then report on it. Until then, we have other fish to fry.
Which takes us to this story from World Net Daily:
BORN IN THE USA?
Pentagon orders soldier fired for challenging prezArmy warrior terminated from job after questioning Obama eligibility
By Chelsea Schilling and Joe Kovacs© 2009 WorldNetDaily
The Department of Defense has compelled a private employer to fire a U.S. Army
Reserve major from his civilian job after he had his military deployment orders
revoked for arguing he should not be required to serve under a president who has
not proven his eligibility for office.
According to the CEO of Simtech Inc., a private company contracted by the
Defense Security Services, an agency of the Department of Defense, the
federal government has compelled the termination of Maj. Stefan Frederick Cook.
Cook's attorney, Orly Taitz, wrote in her blog that Simtech CEO Larry Grice
said he would try to find another position within the company for Cook, but
nothing is currently available.
The Department of Defense does contracting in the general field of
information technology/systems integration, at which Cook, a senior systems
engineer and architect, was employed until taking a military leave of absence on
July 10 in preparation for his deployment to Afghanistan.
"Grice told plaintiff, in essence, that the situation had become 'nutty and
crazy,' and that plaintiff would no longer be able to work at his old position,"
Taitz wrote.
Grice made clear that it was Defense Security Services that had compelled
Simtech to fire Cook, Taitz wrote.
According to the report, Grice told Cook "there was some gossip that
'people were disappointed in' the plaintiff because they thought he was
manipulating his deployment orders to create a platform for political purposes."
The Simtech CEO then discussed Cook's expectation of final paychecks,
without any severance pay, and wished the soldier well.
Messages left with Grice's office had not been returned at the time of this
report.
"A federal agency (such as the Department of Defense, acting through the
Defense Security Services Agency) clearly violates the Whistleblower Protection
Act if it takes or fails to take (or threatens to take or fail to take) a personnel action with respect to any employee or applicant because of any disclosure of information by the employee or applicant that he or she reasonably believes evidences a violation of a law, rule or regulation; gross mismanagement; gross waste of funds; an abuse of authority; or a substantial and specific danger to public health or safety," Taitz wrote.
"What has happened in the present case of Stefan Frederick Cook is that a federal agency appears to have taken action against Stefan Frederick Cook's private employer, Simtech, Inc., which is a closely held corporation owned and operated by members of a single family, who are as much victims of the Department of Defense's heavy-handed interference with plaintiff Cook's private-sector employment as is plaintiff Cook himself."
As WND reported, Taitz confirmed to WND the military rescinded Maj. Cook's
impending deployment orders.
"We won! We won before we even arrived," she said with excitement. "It
means that the military has nothing to show for Obama. It means that the
military has directly responded by saying Obama is illegitimate – and they
cannot fight it. Therefore, they are revoking the order!" She continued,
"They just said, 'Order revoked.' No explanation. No reasons – just revoked."
A hearing on the questions raised by Maj. Stefan Frederick Cook, an engineer who told WND he wants to serve his country in Afghanistan, is still scheduled for July 16 at 9:30 a.m.
"As an officer in the armed forces of the United States, it is [my] duty to gain clarification on any order we may believe illegal. With that said, if President Obama is found not to be a 'natural-born citizen,' he is not eligible to be commander-in-chief," he told WND only hours after his case was originally filed.
The rest here.
Now, to me, there are 2 core issues to this. First, of course, is the birth certificate. But the other is the actions of Major Cook. On all of it just a couple points.
1. UNTIL PROVEN OTHERWISE Obama is the legitimate POTUS (goddammitall). So on those grounds alone the soldier has no standing. He can (and should) protest and question and demand all he likes but refusing orders under these circumstances is insubordination at best, maybe dereliction of duty.
2. As such the military would have been within their rights to court martial Cook. But by Cook/Taitz going public it forces the military into the situation where if they court martial it appears they are court martialing a whistleblower, major public relations disaster. So instead they rescind his orders. And have him fired. The article stated someone no longer wanted his services in uniform. Well they also seem to be saying the same about ANY defense work he does. OR, the employer is either embarressed (or maybe even pissed) that someone working for them did something like this. And they want to push it back on the military. How is it that they could try to find him another position if they are saying the military wants him out?
3. Big mistake to rescind those orders. Because now it opens the door for any malfaesant (and I'm not saying Cook is one, he may truly believe as he does) to use this to ignore orders to deploy. Are they going to now rescind the orders of everyone who objects on these grounds? What kind of chaos will that cause?
4. This is America. Even Obama is innocent until proven guilty. As I said he is the legitimate POTUS until someone can prove otherwise. Legally (I think) he doesn't have to prove anything. Others have to prove -- not alledge -- that he is guilty of what they say. No one has done that yet. Even a President under impeachment is still legitimate UNTIL HE IS REMOVED FROM OFFICE. And Obama is under neither impeachment nor indictment at this time. I think Cook may believe he has a legitimate gripe. He certainly has every right and duty to question it and pursue it as he best he can. I don't think he has a right to refuse what are, to my mind, legal orders. I think Taitz caught wind of this and is pushing Cook, using him to further her own agenda.
If you want to know a bit more about Orly Taitz who has been at the front of the birth certificate movement read this. It may change your opinions some.
Ok. There ya go. Talk amongst yourselves.
20 comments:
A criteria to be POTUS is to provide proof that one has met ALL the criteria to be POTUS. That proof has not been provided. He is not official until he has provided proof.
Our legal system has an "innocent until proven guilty" mantra to protect the people from government making bullshit charges against them, but it does not mean that someone is innocent just because someone has not provided evidence proving otherwise.
Amen! to force0231 you are correct!
Quote above: "But by Cook/Taitz going public it forces the military into the situation where if they court martial it appears they are court martialing a whistleblower, major public relations disaster. So instead they rescind his orders. And have him fired."
Fired from a civilian job. Big difference. There is also the possibility of this defence contractor losing his contract if he doesn't fire this soldier. Chicago style justice. Expect more of this - a LOT more - in every facet of employment where the govt can exert it's influence.
RE: Point 3 - "Are they going to now rescind the orders of everyone who objects on these grounds? What kind of chaos will that cause?"
The root of this chaos is Obama being treated as if he is untouchable and above the law. Provide the long form birth certificate, adoption records, school and university records (including grants/financial aid and scholoarship info)and be done with it already.
This is why this should have been dealt with a year ago. Why did anyone think it was unimportant to properly vet a candidate for President of the United States?
And Obama will not comply now or at any time in the future under any threat short of impeacement, and by that time I doubt we'd have that option anyway.
This issue will keep coming up as Obama pursues his agenda. The Oath Keepers have already stated their intention to refuse unconstitutional orders, and others will follow in the footsteps of Maj. Cook. I'm inclined to agree that military personnel are not within their rights in refusing orders on the basis of the sitting POTUS not proving his eligibility yet. (If he is compelled to and cannot, that will be another matter entirely.)
But this should have been dealt with a year ago. There is no sense in going back to re-fight this battle if it means neglecting the more pressing battles ahead.
This is why this should have been dealt with a year ago. Why would anyone have thought it unimportant to properly vet a candidate for President of the United States?
This issue will come up again as Obama pursues his agenda. The Oath Keepers have already stated that they will not obey unconstitutional orders and there will be more Maj. Cooks. Obama will not comply with orders to produce these documents unless threatened with impeachment and by that time who knows if that will even be an option? But there is no sense in fighting the last battle over again if it means neglecting the ones ahead of us.
Sorry about the double post, I thought the first one got dumped.
force0231 I believe you are incorrect. Proof is not required to be POTUS. In fact a comgressman recently was heavily ridiculed for introducing a bill that would require just that. Read the article here:
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=92705
Now, understand I agree there SHOULD be such a requirement but at this time there is not and that is the situation we have to work with here.
I also heartily agree with Revere and anon at 10:57 this should have been dealt with long before he was elected. And the people to blame include the MSM who kept everyone deaf dumb and euphoric so they didn't want to hear this.
But as it stands now there is no proof Obama has broken the law on this and a heavily democratic Senate is unlikely to be easily swayed toward impeachment. Cook refusing the order on this basis is incorrect.
As for being fired from a civilian job especially after an administration change it happens far more often than this, regardless of which group is taking the stage. Doesn't make it right but it is what it is.
The fact that the government insisted that this man be fired smacks of fascism. Unless, perhaps, there is a rule that I don't know about stating that corporations that do contracted work for the Defense Dept. can not employ anyone who was not Honorably Discharged.
I'm not sure how "Revoked" fits in on the Honorable vs. Dishonorable Discharge scale.
Anyone else know?
Also, I would have to question MR on this point,
1) Obama is President (yes, this is true),
2) there is no law requiring states or federal government to check the legal citizenship status of anyone who runs for President (true)
HOWEVER,
3) the Constitution says that anyone who is not a natural born citizen of the United States can not fun for the office of President of the United States.
Is the Constitution not law enough?
I'm confused here.
I have no position on whether I believe Obama is a citizen or not. I think it is likely he is. However, I do have the opinion that there should not have been any doubt as to whether he is. This is not right.
Pastorius - you are correct about what the Constitution says. Yes, it is "law enough." There have been no explicit requirements in federal election law, however - until now the political parties have been responsible for "vetting" the credentials of their nominees.
The bill MR described was, I think, an effort to regularize the procedure for verification under Federal election law and not leave it to the auspices of the political parties.
If he is not eligible to be POTUS, I do not know if an officer would have a "good faith belief" defense for obeying orders from someone who is not a "valid" CIC. I would think they would in a US court, but given the move toward "international criminal law" I am not sure I'd want to take my chances!
Ro
Pastorius -- Unless I missed something in the article (very possible) the man was not discharged, dishonorably or otherwise. He is still active duty but told to stand down on deployment. That said I do believe dishonorable discharge would keep you from working for a company who contracts to the government.
As for gov't fascist shenanagan's you need not tell me. My cousin works for the State Dept, rather well placed. Both when push came in and then Obama she saw civilian employees be let go.
Her husband works for a company that privately contracts to the Corps of Engineers. He's a year or so younger than you, 2 young children. Hardcore conservative and not quiet about it.
In May he was sent to Iraq until (possibly) Christmas.
As a civilian.
All of this probably more than I should have said here but there it is. It does happen. Doesn't make it right. But let me ask you this: if you were president of a company and a contractor had a employee who you knew was attempting to slander or denigrate you, would you persuade them to either fire or reassign that employee away from any assignment to you? Happens in the private business world as well. Still doesn't make it right.
Now, of course the Constitution is law enough. I never said nor implied that it wasn't.
But that same Constitution that you & I ferociously defend that says a woman has a right to wear a Hajib or a Chador in America also says you have to be a natural born citizen. It does not say you have to prove it. As we keep saying we are a nation of laws and there is no law that says he must prove it.
And here's the nasty part: because of that, someone will have to bring convincing evidence beyond a shadow of a doubt that Obama has broken a law. It will have to be criminal because if it's civil Obama could tie this thing up for years on the grounds that asking for proof, forcing him to provide it, is unconstitutional. And any law they try to write to force it would be fought on the same grounds. I think it would actually require a Constitutional Amendment but I'm real beat. What the fuck do I know?
what a mess. glad i'm moving to alaska... mabye palin is planning to break off from this insanity :)
Cook did not refuse to obey his orders.
He simply filed suit asking if the orders were legal - from a legal Commander in Chief.
- pupista! (barking mad on the right)
Holy moly, Miller, you are correct. I misunderstood/misread that entirely.
Which slightly alters my thinking on the rescinding of orders. They did it just to make it go away. Still a big mistake.
It still leaves the question of does the military have the right to have someone challenging their authority fired (and even if they do have the right it doesn't mean it makes it right).
And I still contend that legally, Obama is POTUS until proven ineligible.
Even Cook sort of says as much:
"As an officer in the armed forces of the United States, it is [my] duty to gain clarification on any order we may believe illegal. With that said, if President Obama is found not to be a 'natural-born citizen,' he is not eligible to be commander-in-chief," he told WND only hours after his case was originally filed.
IF he is found not eligible.
Until such time I believe it must be assumed he is eligible.
I just remembered - there was some talk from the left last year that McCain would not be eligible to be the Repub nominee because he was born in the Canal Zone.
I remember thinking "uh-oh" - but then it just died. Now I wonder if this is why. I will see if I can find a link for the McCain story.
Ro
Ro -- IF I remember right the McCain story died/was a non-story because both his parents were Americans.
Link -
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/28/us/politics/28mccain.html?_r=1&ex=1361941200&en=45d24e7c7a991183&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss
What is freaking hysterical is that, at least as regarding McCain's eligibility, the question of where he was born is "certainly not a frivolous issue." (Last sentence in the article).
Well, then, we should give the Major the benefit of the NYTimes judgment on that point, doncha think?
But those who want to know where BHO was born are loony "birthers."
I am personally not concerned about it, but I understand why others, particularly active duty military, are.
Ro
Ro -- I agree with you almost to the letter. I've never called them birthers. It is a valid question it should be asked and answered. I've always said so. Of ANY President. Especially by military personel sent in harm's way or by anyone who would be affected by his decisions (that's everyone). I just don't think it should be the focus of so much print to the exclusion of other issues as some make it.
I think so too. I also suspect the admin. would like people to focus on this because it does take time and energy away from fighting the admins socialist agenda.
Just imagine if this lawyer were involved in fighting some of the more blatant unconstitutional moves this admin had already made.
Ro
Ya know, Ro, I was going to say that about the lawyer but didn't for some unknown reason.
I'm glad you did.
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