You'll notice that when Rifqa beginning at the :51 second mark, there are no tears.
I trust MR's instincts, and I felt caution about the story. However, I told Midnight Rider that I sense that Rifqa Bary is, like many teenage girls, simply a Drama Queen. In fact, that may be the basic truth of her personality. She may be now and forever a Drama Queen, a Diva.
However, I told Midnight Rider, that does not mean she is not telling the truth. In fact, when Drama Queens do find themselves suddenly caught up in something that is a very real danger, they find objective reality piercing their usual thoroughly subjective reality, and they have trouble recognizing it as anything more than another bit of drama in their subjective reality.
When Rifqa Bary repeats over and over, "You guys just don't understand ... you guys just don't understand ..." I sense that she is speaking of herself. She is the one who "just doesn't understand." She has a hard time believing that anything in Objective Reality could actually break her absolute control over her Subjective Reality. That's my sense.
That is how Drama Queens behave.
I tend to believe Rifqa Bary is a Drama Queen who was born into a Muslim family, has become a Christian, and is now going through the very real problems that go along with Apostasy in Muslim culture, which includes, of course, death by Honor Killing.
I tend to believe Rifqa Bary is a Drama Queen who was born into a Muslim family, has become a Christian, and is now going through the very real problems that go along with Apostasy in Muslim culture, which includes, of course, death by Honor Killing.
However, this morning, I received a word of caution from another trusted friend, BabbaZee. BabbaZee's opinion differs from Midnight Riders just slightly. I'll let Babba speak on her opinion, if she so chooses.
The problem for me is, while I've always believed Rifqa Bary, I have never really trusted her as a person. And now, having had two friends caution me on this story, I am starting to be concerned. And so, I have decided to give public voice to my concern.
The problem with Drama Queens is they change their minds at the drop of a pin.
Do not be surprised if Rifqa Bary has some surprises up her sleeve. And, do not be surprised if this story turns out completely differently than you may have ever believed it could.
The problem with Drama Queens is they change their minds at the drop of a pin.
Do not be surprised if Rifqa Bary has some surprises up her sleeve. And, do not be surprised if this story turns out completely differently than you may have ever believed it could.
UPDATE: I also think it is important to note that Rifqa is, as we have already posted, an sexually-abused/physically-abused child. It would be no wonder that a young girl like her might have a tenuous grasp on reality.
79 comments:
Nevertheless the danger is genuine. There are precedents in Britain.
See links under DAUGHTER-SLAUGHTER at http://kwelos.tripod.com/subjects.htm
Oh yes, the danger is VERY REAL.
And thanks for pointing that out.
I will add a sentence to my post to make it clear that in no way do I think that Apostasy is a real danger in the Muslim culture. Honor killings are a very real threat.
What is this caution based on? Does somebody have some new information indicating that her claims are not true? Otherwise, what the hell does her alleged "drama queen" persona have to do with anything? Are Muslim mommy and daddy going to be cool with it or are they going to drag her back to Sri Lanka to be "dealt with"? If it's the former, then she's not a "drama queen", she's a liar. If the latter, she is in fear of her life. The "attendant problems of Apostasy in Muslim culture" can include death. How is a non-"drama queen" supposed to behave in such circumstances?
Is she telling the truth or isn't she? That is all we really need to know.
As I say Pastorious I can not put my finger on exactly the why what or who of it but the jewdometer reads extreme caution
Yes we know the danger is real but that never justifies bad behavior IF any exists in this case.
I do not know, I just suspect
RRA,
Of course by "the attendant problems of Apostasy in Muslim culture" I mean death.
This post is written for the initiated, like you. And you know that I know that Honor Killings are a real threat.
You said: Does somebody have some new information indicating that her claims are not true? Otherwise, what the hell does her alleged "drama queen" persona have to do with anything? Are Muslim mommy and daddy going to be cool with it or are they going to drag her back to Sri Lanka to be "dealt with"?
I say: The problem, to my mind, is that Rifqa Bary does not know her own mind.
I think I spelled it out very clearly. She may change her mind at the drop of a pin, and this case could turn out very differently than we might expect.
Respect but suspect.
In this case a little more than most.
Respect but suspect.
Trust but verify.
If your mother says she loves, give her a hug and kiss but check it out.
When I first wrote Pastorius I said I was willing to believe Rifqa but in my gut something doiesn't seem wuite right here. Not enough that I wanted to post about it, something just tells me there may be a different agenda going on.
BabbaZee & Pastorius -- if you'd like to contrast & compare thoughts offline Pasto can give you my email address.
Midnight
Yes the many different agendas are turbo charged up in this mess
Very good MR
Pastorius ~ hook a sistah up
Will do.
danke
http://listen.grooveshark.com/#/song/Danke_Schoen/8560034
Pastorius,
If Rifqa is innocent, and her parents are guilty of everything she says, she better have the best lawyer money can buy, and he better be able to eliminate any reasonable doubt that her story is true. Her life may depend on it. As far as I'm concerned almost all the evidence I can see points to her telling the truth, and there really isn't any compelling evidence so far that I know of to suggest that she is lying. But if it turned out that her story really was nothing but a big, I'd be very angry.
Tawana Brawley?
That would discredit Atlas and a bunch of others and damage anyone who has spoken of Sharia as a intolerant
Epaminondas,
I know, and that's just one of the reasons that I would be extremely angry at Rifqa if it turned out that she was lying. Not to mention that it might also endanger children who really were being abused in fundamentalist Muslim house holds, by making it harder to get the authorities to take the victims seriously. If it could be proven that she is a lying and that My Space page was faked, it would be a dream come true for CAIR.
Epa,
BINGO!
Would you put it past CAIR and organizations like them to trump up some kind of Performance Art like that?
bingo Epi
or ...
could be as simple as the terrible games of a disturbed abused girl gone media frenzy due to...
people see what they want to see after all...
I just do not know..
yet.
same effin time stamp and everything
oooo fah bingo
What sort of "bad behavior" are we talking about here? Is there reason to believe she is telling lies, was promiscuous, got pregnant, skipped school, got bad grades, was abusive to other family members, shoplifted, drove drunk, took up pole dancing, what? And what would this other "agenda" be? Her rather fevered Christianity? I don't have a problem with that in this case. I don't believe in it, but this is a teenage kid in a tense situation. She's under pressure to be a "good Muslim girl", she gets converted, there's going to be drama. Doesn't mean the parents can't get upset -- but when there are death threats in a religion that prescribes that punishment for apostasy, all bets are off until her safety can be assured.
read my comments and you get your answer
Revereridesagain,
I agree, I see no compelling evidence that Rifqa is lying, and yet there is some compelling evidence that what she is saying is true. It seems the Rifqa is innocent and her parents are guilty side, seems the more reasonable one to take right now. I just hope she has a really good lawyor
I never said I had evidence, compelling or otherwise of anything..
What I say is I see a multitude of manipulative probable scenarios based on multiple involved agendas,
and that my instinct on it reads caution...
and now I say the cautious need a nap
lol
thanks pastorious & MR
later
Epa -- Tawana Brawley, Flying Imams etc. My gut feeling only so I won't go into it and, because of what's at stake here, and more than willing to give Rifqa a caustious benefit of the doubt.
Woah, nice post actually. First off, to avoid any confusion, I know Babba, Pastorius and MR are not claiming there is evidence of fraud and lying on Rifqa's part.
Now, there are a couple of things that I thought were weird about Rifqa's video also. First, that Pastorius mentioned also, is that there were no tears. That's correct and she does sound like she doesn't even believe what she's saying. I know it might not look real, but I understand it. To me, its a reality and easy to understand that parents can kill their children for religion. However, when I think about my parents, I think, "yeah, but they love me, so I don't know if they will do anything of that sort" even though I know that my parents and my family support capital punishment for apostasy. And that not because they're violent people but because that's their religion.
Now, the point that I am trying to make is that to her it still doesn't sound real when she says it but she knows that it is a reality. I don't know if she's a drama queen or not. I do know that anyone in that situation can act that way. Where you know, logically, that something is real however you can't really comprehend it or "picture it" happening deep in your heart. You still believe your parents love you but you KNOW that they love Islam more.
I understand people being cautious. There is a great chance that she is just all faking it but just like everyone here said, its too big a risk to test that!
Tawana Brawley? I am not that familiar with that case but is she the black girl that lied about being raped by 4 white men? And she was asked by some black men or something to lie about that? Well, that's a totally different case "A girl asked by her people to lie about people she HATES or was brought up to hate". Rifqa's case is different. But then again, similarities can be drawn anywhere. I don;t know about flying imams though, will look that up.
Anyway, Rifqa, to me at least, sounds and LOOKS innocent. That she was sexually abused has no bearing on what she is saying right now. To me that sounds like this: "AA can't be trusted with what he says about Islam because he was a Muslim and disgruntled with the religion". I know you guys aren't saying that but that's what it sounds like to me. I know that if she's lying, it is going to ruin it not only for Robert Spencer and Pamela, but it is going to be detramental for all of us. But I think many of you agree with me here when I say, no matter what our GUT FEELING might be, we have to stand by this girl because if our GUT FEELING is wrong, that means we doomed another person to her death just so we could save face!
Oh another thing that I forgot to write in my oh-so-little-a-comment. When you tell your story over and over (and when you're an ex-Muslim, people tend to ask you your conversion story more than normal), you grow numb to the feeling that you actually had when you told the story for the first time or when you felt it for the first time. We have to take all these things into consideration.
RRA,
Note that in my private email I told you I am going by gut instinct. I didn't say I have evidence other than the Drama Queen false tears in the video in this post.
And, I have made it clear repeatedly to you, in the post, in the comments section, and in private email, that I do not think her Drama Queen personality is necessarily evidence of anything at all. Lots of Drama Queens get themselves into bad situations and still act like Drama Queens.
I even went so far as to explain why I think that happens, the psychology of it.
I don't know how much clearer I could be.
MR says it's a gut feeling.
Babba says it's an "instinct".
I say it's a gut feeling.
Please stop trying to make it sound like we are accusing Rifqa of anything.
That is not the case.
Avenging Apostate,
You said: I know it might not look real, but I understand it. To me, its a reality and easy to understand that parents can kill their children for religion. However, when I think about my parents, I think, "yeah, but they love me, so I don't know if they will do anything of that sort" even though I know that my parents and my family support capital punishment for apostasy.
I say: Yes, exactly, the situation she is in would seem very surreal or unreal to anyone who was going through. The idea that your parents might want to kill you, when you absolutely believe they love you, would cause even a very strong mind to divide, and would cause anyone to behave in an odd way.
AA,
You said: Anyway, Rifqa, to me at least, sounds and LOOKS innocent.
I say: Yep.
You said: That she was sexually abused has no bearing on what she is saying right now.
I say: Yes, to be clear, I didn't mean it had any bearing on the case at hand. I was only talking about how someone who has been sexually molested by loved ones would have a hard time grasping reality as a result. I was offering that up as an explanation for why she might behave the odd way she does.
AA
You said: no matter what our GUT FEELING might be, we have to stand by this girl because if our GUT FEELING is wrong, that means we doomed another person to her death just so we could save face!
I say: Yep. I agree.
Babba chooses to stay out of it. So, she doesn't post on the subject. I am not saying that we should not post on the subject. I'm just saying, I'm cautious.
No matter what, in essence, I agree with Pamela, this is a case about Sharia Law vs. American Law. It is, potentially, a landmark case in that sense.
Pastorius,
I actually agree with you. To be honest, it is hard for me to look at this case 100% objectively, mainly because of my background. However, that doesn't mean I have a totally bigotted viewpoint on this case (not that anyone here suggested that).
I think a lot of the people here misunderstood what you guys were saying about being cautious and what you meant by it. Again, this girl doesn't act in a normal way...well, you know, the situation ain't that normal either.
About this being Shariah Law vs. American Law. It is a landmark case and it is very crucial that Rifqa's side wins the case--not only to save Rifqa's life (it doesn't really matter anymore if she lied or not, NOW if she's returned to her parents, she's going to be killed or at least thrown in a dungeon--I wouldn't stand by her if she's lied though) but to make the American legal system aware of the dangers of Islam.
I'm sitting at around 70-30 or perhaps even 80-20 in favor of everything being on the up and up.
A couple of nagging details bug me which don't seem all that big but still..
I picked up on the DQ aspect, which would be fairly meaningless in and of itself. But then I also had the very distinct impression I had seen her trusted friend (the one Atlas interviewed) somewhere before, and that would be very odd indeed if it were true.
More specifically, I feel I ought to go poking around through old videos that may include press release type statements connected with by a certain noxious organization that really ought to be catapulted into the ocean.
CAUTION: Feelings and intuitions are fickle guides, as you all know, and mine could be completely off base in this important instance.
Then again Pallywood is an ugly reality that I would not have believed possible in my younger years.
Anonymous,
Interesting, as a Christian, that Pastor had me absolutely convinced he was on the up and up.
I'm like you, I'm like 80-20 or even 90-10 that there's nothing wrong here.
I'm just being cautious.
AA,
You said: About this being Shariah Law vs. American Law. It is a landmark case and it is very crucial that Rifqa's side wins the case--not only to save Rifqa's life (it doesn't really matter anymore if she lied or not, NOW if she's returned to her parents, she's going to be killed or at least thrown in a dungeon--I wouldn't stand by her if she's lied though) but to make the American legal system aware of the dangers of Islam.
I say: Yep.
Alright. I'm a little slow so I don't know what you guys are talking about ---> Interesting, as a Christian, that Pastor had me absolutely convinced he was on the up and up. & But then I also had the very distinct impression I had seen her trusted friend (the one Atlas interviewed) somewhere before, and that would be very odd indeed if it were true..
Explain please. ;-)
Anonymous seems to think he has seen that Pastor somewhere before, like, probably in a CAIR video.
My take on it is that as a Christian in America, that guy convinces me that he is truly a Pastor, by the way he acts. It's cultural touchstone stuff. He behaves in a manner that I only see Christians behaving.
Pastorius,
Thanks. See, I had this language barrier even though we're all talking in English!
Y'know we have the courts for a reason. We have rules of evidence for a reason.
We can't know the granular details and we can't even know the level at which Pam is operating here.
This is one case where the system had better work.
That said, it WAS the system which uncovered Brawley
Been out for an exciting afternoon at the laundromat so I'm just getting up to speed again.
What would be "normal" from this kid? Visualize it. Describe it. Aside from not having tears streaming down her face, how "should" she be behaving? I've seen girls that age under similar threat who close up like clams and you have to drag every bit of information out of them. Others can't stop talking. A video of her just as she arrived in Orlando might have provided interesting contrast to one where she felt at least temporarily protected.
Pam's got a photo of some of the Noor mosque gang up at Atlas. Looks like a nice friendly bunch of guys. But the old greybeard in the middle is Sheikh Yusef Qaradawi and the geezer at front left is al-Malawi, both banned from the US for supporting HAMAS. At right is Noor's Salah Sultan. He and Malawi serve on the boards of Qaradawi's Islamist organizations. Do they appear "normal" for men who issue jihad fatwas and want to kill Jews?
Jamal the convert from Islam pastor comes across as an open, honest person (in spite of the strange sideburns). What reason is there to even suspect that he's a plant?
What is "normal" when you are up against people who want to act out violent beliefs?
I'm going to go on record to rescind any suspicions I may have generated in my earlier post regarding Jamal. I can't find the video I had in mind when I posted that, and the more I think back to the guy I was mentally blending Jamal with, the more the similarity begins to fade, along with my suspicions.
Sorry Jamal. And thanks very much for being who you are. Don't change - the world needs more courage like yours!
Now its up to 90-10 for me as well.
Those strange sideburns are kind of per usual in the hip Christian community.
Believe it or not, there is a hip Christian community.
I recognize all sorts of American Christian cultural touchstones in that guy.
Epa said: Tawana Brawley?
That would discredit Atlas and a bunch of others and damage anyone who has spoken of Sharia as a intolerant.
I've been thinking along those lines too, those I don't have any significant hinckies.
I tend to believe Rifqa because girls that age are such drama queens, presenting the truth in a strange fashion.
BTW, Robert Spencer would be discredited too -- just as his new book is published.
I don't see how she could making this up. If her parents are Mohammedans - shady, radical ones at that - there's a chance that they'll kill her even if they never so much as hinted that they might do such a thing. That's good enough for me.
Furthermore, we as decent human beings and Americans are obligated to take all children out of Islamic homes. No, it never happens, but Islam is child abuse. Raising a child in a death-cult is child abuse. Raising a child to believe that his/her purpose in life to commit all sorts of illegal action to appease a bloodthirsty sky-troll, every single one of which will land that kid in jail, constitutes child abuse. Forcing all females into prostitution, as Islam does, is illegal. Raping your family members (which Rifqa's uncle did) is highly illegal but explicitly sanctioned by the Koran (although, not in the case of uncles, who are potential johns, but brothers, sons, and fathers can rape their pre-pimped female family members per 2:223). Teaching a child that his/her loyalty is not to the USA but the Ummah is sedition. None of it is legal, none of it is tolerable, and none of it is acceptable. We should be yanking kids out of these homes against their wills. When a kid like Rifqa Bary begs and pleads to just be free, as she is entitled to be in this country, we have to help her.
Furthermore, every member of the Noor mosque actually will kill her. These are not moderate Mohammedans. Are you guys aware of Patrick Poole's research on the Noor Mosque? Those guys don't play. They live the Sharia and they churn out terrorists every day.
WOW I missed this discussion
I brought this matter up in the comments over at Jihad Watch, of course I received flak
What Made me wary on this video is the smile at the very beginning.
I agree this could develop into a major Shariah Law vs. American Law case, and a lot of damaged can be caused if she is proven as emotional or lying.
Also I dont think CAIR would be making such a big issue of this if she is telling the truth
There are too many holes in this one
Personally I dont think this case is going to end to well for the anti- jihad movement
Just a gut feeling
Look at that, RRA, once again you have, Shiva, a very anti-Jihad person, saying he has a "gut feeling" that something is wrong here.
Shiva:
What Made me wary on this video is the smile at the very beginning.
Honestly, all I see is a nervous attempt at a smile. Smiling when you meet someone is considered polite in a lot of cultures around the world. I don't understand what the problem here with the video is. I have shared my story a billion times with different people. I have never been like, "AH, HELP ME, THEY'RE COMING FOR ME!!!!" Most of the time, when people ask me, "whats the worst that can happen if your parents find out", my answer to them is, "well, they'll kill me!" I say that with a straight face, no tears and actually, I sometimes even burst out into laughter or have a SMILE on my face. To me, if this girl were shedding tears upon tears, that would be fake. Lets not forget, she appeared on the video over 2 weeks after she escaped her parents. I am sure the pastors must have comforted her a little over that period of time. I am sure she didn't continuously cry for help and face hopelessness and death during that time. I mean, if we are trying to be logical, let us all be logical and consider all points in this story.
I have said this again and again, this story is very real to me personally. You have to put yourself in her shoes to be able to understand what she's going through. No it does not EVER sound real that your parents will kill you. NEVER! Even if they're standing there with a sword pointed at you, you still have it in the back of your head, "but they love me!" So I think we need to stop pointing at the "smiles" or the "lack of tears" or the "expression not real" points and actually try to understand why she appears the way she appears.
Also I dont think CAIR would be making such a big issue of this if she is telling the truth.
Okay. I hope I understood this one right. Correct me if I'm wrong but you're saying that CAIR WON'T make a big deal about it IF SHE'S TELLING THE TRUTH? I don't understand how you came to that conclusion. The only specific reason that CAIR would get involved in this to shut her up is just that SHE IS TELLING THE TRUTH AND HELPING EXPOSE ISLAM. None of us thought this case would get the coverage that it did. I personally thought the judge would send her to Ohio back to her parents. We were proven wrong. Its quite possible that CAIR didn't know what it was getting itself involved in. It is quite possible that CAIR thought they could shut this girl up also just like they do with anyone that tries to raise a question about Islam. I don't know what kind of Muslims you have met but Muslims always get jumpy when the truth about Islam comes out and especially when that truth is ugly.
There are too many holes in this one
Personally I dont think this case is going to end to well for the anti- jihad movement
Again no offense to anyone but the only way I see A LOT OF HOLES in this one is if I see it only through the lens of a little bit of Hollywood! Apart from that, it looks real to me. Is there a possibility she's lying and faking it? YEAH! Does her story have a lot of holes in it? NO!
Anyway, if I misunderstood what you said, correct me. I understand that its your GUT FEELING. But its no secret that this GUT FEELING has turned into a huge debate on this comment thread and its just helping fuel doubts about the whole story WITHOUT ANY SOLID EVIDENCE.
There is more that does not add up.
According to Altas she had been beaten by both the father and brother yet, the brother is still allowed to meet her.
Also at the end of the video she has something very interesting to say about her brother.
She was beaten for not wearing a head scarf, yet she was a cheerleader.
The father would not say he is going to kill her then go on a business trip, giving her a chance to escape.
She mentions Amina and Sarah, even though they where abused, they had no idea their father would kill them.
If the father had any intentions of killing her, then she would already be dead.
Good points, Shiva.
According to Altas she had been beaten by both the father and brother yet, the brother is still allowed to meet her.
Could you provide me with the link for that?
She was beaten for not wearing a head scarf, yet she was a cheerleader.
I might have misread it but I think she was "smacked on the face" for hiding BECAUSE that one time her father made her wear the headscarf in the car and she was embarrassed by it. That is just one instance. And I don't think anyone claimed that was a continuous thing. Again, I might have missed that detail so links would be appreciated. Oh, and what school did she go to? Does anyone here know? Because even in Saudi Arabia, girls inside their schools can walk around without abayas, that's because they're all-girls schools! That might help with the cheerleading thing. However, unless it is proven that her father hit her regularly for not wearing headscarf, this is a moot point. She could just have been going to one of the mosque gatherings with her father for which he made her wear the headscarf. Whether the father forced her to wear the headscarf or not however does not say anything about whether he would kill her or not because she converted to Christianity (or out of Islam).
The father would not say he is going to kill her then go on a business trip, giving her a chance to escape.
The father probably wasn't all-knowing and didn't realize that she was going to escape. She's from SriLanka. Not a lot of escaping girls in that culture.
She mentions Amina and Sarah, even though they where abused, they had no idea their father would kill them.
I don't know how that proves or disproves anything. You could probably elaborate a little more on this.
If the father had any intentions of killing her, then she would already be dead.
Muslims can be barbaric but not necessarily stupid. You might want to rethink your statement. Yaser Said killed his girls and is at large--not very stupid if you think about it. People make escape plans before they carry out murder. Muslims know America ain't following Shariah law, so they act accordingly.
Just think about this: The statement, "Islam is a religion of peace" isn't repeated or heard that much (or at all) in the UAE or Saudi Arabia. You know why? Because they don't feel the need to lie! Islam and Muslims change and adapt according to the situation and circumstances; we need to stop thinking they're brainless dummies!
Avenging Apostate
You make some very good points yet I still cannot get over the uneasy feeling I get from this video
The only way I can describe it is, I get the same uneasy feeling when I listen to Tariq Ramadan
By the way, I happen to live amongst moslems
I just hope my gut feeling is wrong.
Shiva,
I wasn't questioning everything you mentioned. I really wanted to see what Atlas had written about the father and the brother beating her. Either one of us could be right here. However, I don't want to sit around until she's killed to figure out "ah, she was telling the truth!"
Oh, and its good that you live amongst Muslims, however, no offense but you don't seem to understand some basic concepts within Islamic communities. But then, I might have understood you wrong and if I did then I apologize for that.
AA,
I think you would agree that in Islam you do have to give the apostate time to think, however, you do not let them out of your clutches while they are thinking.
For instance, the original idea of the warning, as I recall, came from a story where Mohammed and his troops surrounded a city, and then sent a messenger to tell them they had to convert or be killed.
Am I not right about that?
And just to clarify, Shiva lives in a Muslim country, not just among Muslims. Hell, I live among Muslims in the United States, but Shiva actually lives in a Muslim country.
Lord knows why. The guy has a choice. If I were him, I'd leave.
Pastorius,
Its true to an extent. The story that you mention about Mohammed sounds a lot like what he did to the Jewish tribes (it might be Banu Quraiza) within Medina. Since he did that many times, I don't know if you were referring to a specific story (if you tell me the time and/or the people he was dealing with, I might be able to remember it). However, here's a problem: Mohammed was in full control in Medina. Mohammed wasn't dealing with a foreign law. He was the law!
I am sure if the Barys were in SriLanka, the situation would be different. In the US, if anyone sees anything suspicious or feels there's something going on, the parents are screwed (try to think about Muslims as people that can think)! Again, we have to look at it from all angles. The Barys are dealing with Western society: I will say this again, Muslims adapt!
As for shiva. You said he has the option to leave? Man! If I had the option to leave, I'd be long gone. Whereabouts is he though? Middle East or somewhere else? Shiva, if you don't want to reveal that, I understand.
Avenging Apostate
"Islam and Muslims change and adapt according to the situation and circumstances; we need to stop thinking they're brainless dummies!"
This I am very aware of
You requested a few links
The judge encouraged both sides to try resolve the custody issues and granted a request by Rifqa to visit with one of her brothers
http://news.aol.com/article/runaway-convert-rifqa-bary-to-stay-in/618325
Her school is New Albany High which is mixed
Thanks for the links. About the brother, I think she has 2 brothers (as the article says too). An 18 years old and another one younger. I can't remember how old he is. This doesn't make it clear which brother she's meeting up with. So it doesn't really raise any question marks for me.
I was also wondering if you had the link to Atlas's coverage of the story where she says that the brother hit her.
Oh and as for the school. Again, I was just wondering. We still don't know a lot of details in this case. We don't know whether the father hit her regularly for not wearing headscarf or if it was a one-time thing. It could've just been because they were going to meet up with the mosque people or something. We don't know.
As for her being a cheerleader. Her parents were trying to portray a MODERATE MUSLIM image, weren't they?! As I said, we need more details before we start deciding its incoherent.
The link about her being beaten is to Atlas who also reports she was sexually assaulted, yet Atlas has no link for further details.
Any the point is, if there is going to be a big case made out of this affair, Rifqa Bary is going to be the foundation, now if she is lying, then it going to be very damaging for our cause.
now if she is lying, then it going to be very damaging for our cause.
I agree with that part...IF she's lying.
OOOOps
I got your last comment and we do agree on something
By the way I am 200 kilometers away from Bali
AA,
I guess Shiva doesn't want to tell you which country he is from.
:)
Anyway, as long as you are suggesting that Muslims would go so far as to allow their teenage daughter to be a Cheerleader in order to maintain a "moderate" image, I would think you could see why we might think Muslims, perhaps, would go so far as to pull off a sham in order to attempt to destroy the careers of Spencer and Geller.
The snake is crafty.
By the way, several times, we have seen stories in the news of Muslimas who were caught in Adultery and were basically sentenced to death. They were then given the choice of either being stoned, or to redeem themselves by becoming "martyrs" (i.e. suicide bombers).
It could be that Rifqa is in that predicament.
I know it sounds like a stretch, but here you have multiple people, including Shiva, who is about as hardcore anti-Islam as they come, warning that they don't believe this story.
I am 90-10 in favor of believing her.
However, I am advising caution.
Pastorius,
I understand what all of you are saying. Its quite possible that its all a trap but then we don't know if it is. If its a trap set up by Rifqa and the Muslim community, well, Spencer and Geller have gotten their reputation stained already. I mean they're pretty deep in this thing. You and I are not even personally involved in it. If this is a trap and its going to blow up in our faces soon then we have lost it all already (as long as this case goes and the fight against Islam in the US so far).
That paints a not so happy future for the anti-jihad movement (as shiva said).
If I remember correctly, a Pakistani newspaper claimed that Rifqa was kidnapped by Christian fundamentalists, raped and then forced to convert to Christianity...or something to that effect. Now, thats what Muslims do in Pakistan so I am more prone to not believing that story.
I am not saying Shiva, Babba, MR or yourself are saying anything blasphemous or anything. I completely understand your being cautious. But, and I keep saying this over and over, what if I was in that situation? That's what I think about. "Do to others as you would have them do to you."
What if I one day appear on TV claiming the same thing she is? What would people's reaction be then? What would I expect people to do? I understand where Spencer's and Geller's reputation could be at stake here but I think saving a life is more important than saving face and I have no doubt that everyone here agrees with me on that.
Oh and Shiva did tell me he's about 200 miles from Bali. I have been to Indonesia but I suck at geography so I wouldn't really know where he is. ;-)
Sorry, make that 200 kilometers.
AA,
Do you have Christian friends to help support you?
I have a friend who is a Christian from Egypt. He tells me that Muslims across the Islamic world are converting to Christianity by the millions.
He says there are many Imams who have converted but retain their position as Imam (stealth Christian) and change their message to one of social justice. He said they do this because it is better than the alternative of leaving their post and having an extremist replace them.
My larger point in bringing all this up is, if you don't have a support network, perhaps, I could help you out.
I know a lot of Christians here but none in a position to be able to help my fiance and I if things go from bad to worse.
Things are quiet and okay right now but if ever I am in trouble, my fiance and I are pretty much on our own. Actually, if I get in trouble, I would rather have some help somewhere to get my fiance to safety because just by being with me she's taking a huge risk.
But as I said, I don't know anyone here that can do that. In fact, most Christians I know here are politically correct.
I do know a couple of Christians who are from Muslim background. However, again, they like me could use some help in times of trouble. Lol.
If you want, I'll pass your email address on to my friend.
Email me if you want me to do so.
I'm telling you guys as a linguist and someone who is well-trained in reading body language and detecting lying, she's 100% for real. If she were lying she would have some sort of twitch, like mealing her mouth or some weird eyebrow thing, and she would blink a LOT more than she did.
Furthermore, her story is consistent, her pronouns are consistent, her tenses are consistent (and that is never the case when anyone lies at length), and I would bet the farm that if you ran the text of that interview through the LIWC she would come out clean as a whistle.
She's an idiot for trusting her brother unless he's a closet apostate and she doesn't want to out him, but I can find no other inconsistency in her story. Also, I'm pretty sure that she ran away and THEN her father went out of town. He was going to take her with him and kill her in Sri Lanka. What doesn't check out is Rifqa's father's filing bankruptcy, selling the business, and then going on a business trip. Either he was taking her with him or he put a hit out on her and wanted to be out of the country so he wouldn't be a suspect.
AA, you're being naive about central Ohio. It's jihad central, which is why multiple officials at her school and at CS should be in prison for not reporting her having been beaten, which many people claim was the case. Beating children, sexual abuse of children, pedophilia, and honor killings are frequently covered up, partly out of PC, partly due to infiltration, and partly for fear of retaliation. That is very much par for the course.
Avenging Apostate
There is a lot of difference between Pastorius and myself, which I will not go into here, as it warrants another thread. Both of us live with asian women, and both of us feel uneasy about Rifqa.
What makes me more dubious is that Pam Geller is not being totally honest in her reporting
#1 She brings up the fact that Rifqa was sexually abused by her family, without giving a link, thus leading readers to believe it was the father who was the culprit, when in fact it was an uncle, and the incident happened in Sri-lanka before the family.
came to America.
#2 She does not give the reasons as to why the family came to America, which was to to seek medical treatment for Rifqa, who lost the sight in her right eye following an accident at home.
If Pam Geller thinks she can out match CAIR by using their tactic of half truths, then she is in for a rude awakening, as you rightly point out, moslems are not so stupid, they are wickedly devious.
Yes,they are wickedly devious, even to the point of plotting a set up, as Pastorius mentions, and the thought also crossed my mind.
I ask myself, if she did not want to be found, why did she leave behind her cell phone and laptop.
jdamn
As a person who has been traveling the best part of my life, and most of it within the moslem world, understanding body language and gut feeling has been a matter of survival
I get bad feeling from this girl.
Shiva, It's six of one and half a dozen of the other on the cell phone and laptop.
If you had those with you, triangulation could be used to track down your precise whereabout.
Other than that, I agree with your point.
Her cell phone and laptop give the necessary info to track her as well.
She would have been better to take them with her and throw them in a river.
But, she's a teenage girl. Would she know such a thing?
I'm trying to be fair-minded about this whole thing. I hope it is apparent that I am not ripping on Rifqa.
Another reason for my skepticism is that she is Sri Lankan. Honour killings are not commonplace with Muslims from there
If I was to just suddenly have to leave then my cell phone and laptop would be the first things I would take.
Why did she leave them behind ?
shiva,
She may have been in an incredible hurry when she left, and that might explain why she would leave her laptop behind. If you are running for your life, you might not think about much else.
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