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The Right of the People to be Secure in their Persons, Houses, Papers, and Effects,
Against Unreasonable Searches and Seizures,
Shall Not Be Violated

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Tuesday, December 08, 2015

Still undecided, but Donald, a religion?

I let ‘Mexico is sending rapists‘ go because you are so right about the border. Of course they are not taking rapists names and then ensuring they get here even if they prefer Cozumel over Nogales. We don’t have your wall, so they get here on their own. That’s on us.

But this?

Why not publish a list of nations we are SUSPENDING immigration, and visas from until further notice?

Why not publish a refugee in place plan in detail?

Why not BAN ALL immigration for 3 years or something, and suspend visas from a list of nations while

As an American who happens to be Jewish it’s all too possible for me to hear those words and remember my grandfather’s in 1957 when I was 8. “Remember, when you see them go after the blacks, YOU’RE NEXT”

I have no innate love for a religion whose supposedly perfect creation document is racist, as anyone who has seen my comments well knows.

But when I see you, Donald, try to achieve your purpose with those words, it triggers not only my ‘we’re next if you dislike us’ warning system, it causes me to question IF YOU CAN BE PRESIDENT because under those words is not the attention gathering tactics that keeps you name out there in the belief there is no such thing as bad attention…but rather, real prejudice against whoever you don’t like today.

I don’t want to see anyone here of ANY RELIGION who is not dedicated to the idea that WE THE PEOPLE are sovereign. That we make up our own laws out of our own heads without regard to a ‘perfect’ religious document, (or otherwise).

That and the protection of the individual from the majority comprises the entire IDEA of America.
If people who believe FOR INSTANCE, THEY must accept the Quran as superior to American law, SUBMIT to American law, fine. If not, they are bound for civil and legal trouble and would probably be happier elsewhere, and certainly can never assimilate.

Our history forbids banning them on that basis. But there are always ways to achieve the goal within the law and the principles we have, and frankly Donald, I thought you smarter
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posted by Epaminondas at permanent link#

40 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Donald J. Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country's representatives can figure out what is going on," a campaign press release said.

The media is omitting the part of the quote that begins with "until."

Tuesday, December 08, 2015 12:18:00 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Not everyone thinks we should simply throw up our hands and wail “but what can we do?” and “there’s nothing to be done.”

...there are also those who wish to protect it from its present-day most dangerous enemies, those who have not lost their senses, those who refuse to make burnt offerings of themselves or their children on the Altars of the Idols of the Age, Tolerance and Diversity – a limitless and unintelligent and even suicidal “Tolerance,” a diseased conception of “Diversity.”

Hugh Fitzgerald writing for Jihad Watch.

Tuesday, December 08, 2015 12:57:00 pm  
Blogger Pastorius said...

The pendulum swings leftward and then the pendulum swings rightward; the populace is giddy and enraged as they watch.

Tuesday, December 08, 2015 1:00:00 pm  
Blogger Pastorius said...

We could convince ourselves it is a sporting event and we're cheering for the home team, if real human beings were not going to die as the result.

Tuesday, December 08, 2015 1:00:00 pm  
Blogger Pastorius said...

Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
...

Tuesday, December 08, 2015 1:01:00 pm  
Blogger Pastorius said...

I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness,
starving hysterical naked,
dragging themselves through the negro streets at dawn looking
for an angry fix,
angelheaded hipsters burning for the ancient heavenly
connection to the starry dynamo in the machinery of night,
who poverty and tatters and hollow-eyed and high sat up smoking
in the supernatural darkness of cold-water flats floating
across the tops of cities contemplating jazz,
who bared their brains to Heaven under the El and saw
Mohammedan angels staggering on tenement roofs
illuminated,
who passed through universities with radiant cool eyes
hallucinating ...

Tuesday, December 08, 2015 1:03:00 pm  
Blogger Pastorius said...

... The darkness drops again but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

Tuesday, December 08, 2015 1:03:00 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The Yeats I get.

As for the Ginsberg, his premise misses: the greatest minds of his generation were figuring out how to put a man on the moon.

Tuesday, December 08, 2015 1:35:00 pm  
Blogger Redneck Texan said...

The Islamist are counting on you feeling exactly the way you do.

Their entire strategy is based on it.

They're hiding behind your perceived notions of religious tolerance, and your wiliness to accept their ideological blueprint for conquest as a legitimate religion.

Trump is tapping into the same instinctive human responses we used to defeat the Indians, Mormons, and Japanese. You cant win a conflict like this without harnessing intolerance and hatred.

As long as the Jews dont start blowing our shit up they have nothing to worry about.

Tuesday, December 08, 2015 1:46:00 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Compare Trump's statement to the Attorney General's threat to prosecute "anti-Muslim" speech.

Now compare the reaction of the media and the Presidential candidates (both parties) to each.

Tuesday, December 08, 2015 2:06:00 pm  
Blogger Pastorius said...

Anonymous, you have a good point about the Ginsberg poem.

The reason I included those lines is merely to express the hysteria that goes along with the rightward and leftward swings of the pendulum.

Tuesday, December 08, 2015 2:32:00 pm  
Blogger Pastorius said...

As I commented on another post, the problem is, decent and reasonable people are running out of decent and reasonable ideas.

Now I will go a step further. When there is an intractable enemy bent on violence and the murder of one's people, and this enemy can not be thwarted through decent and reasonable means, the only answer is war.

What are we going to do? How far are we going to go?

It's up to the Muslims who oppose our values.

If Muslims don't want war, they can en masse, stand up against the radicals in their midst.

Tuesday, December 08, 2015 2:35:00 pm  
Blogger Epaminondas said...

Redneck T, any of the solutions I described would DO THE SAME THING without having to NAME a religion.

Tuesday, December 08, 2015 2:40:00 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sadly, it is the nature of the Muslim to crave war. The West is literally the "house of war" to the believer. Once we have let them in we play by their rules. It was our choice and we chose stupidly.

Tuesday, December 08, 2015 2:45:00 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

A voice of reason in the storm named Trump.

Tuesday, December 08, 2015 2:47:00 pm  
Blogger Pastorius said...

Anonymous at 2:45 PM brings up a very important point.

The world, according to Islam is divided into two Kingdoms, or lands;

Dar al-Islam (the land of Islam

and

Dar al-Harb - the land of War.

America and the rest of the West are Dar al-Islam.

Tuesday, December 08, 2015 3:48:00 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yes Pasto, exactly. Whether or not there will be war is their choice, not ours. And we have ourselves to blame for that.

Tuesday, December 08, 2015 4:01:00 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

So if Trump were to say no Nazis will be allowed in, that would also be problematic ?
True Mohammedanism is incompatible with the US Constitution so therefore it is fitting to point the finger at that religion.
Anyone who espouses that doctrine/religion even though it be only in a nominal way, should be permanently excluded.
Entry to the USA is not a right and it is wholly reasonable to exclude anyone on any sane basis.
Trump has spoken truthfully and to the point, and he is correct.

Tuesday, December 08, 2015 5:51:00 pm  
Blogger Always On Watch said...

Epa,
I understand and share your concerns. I have thought a lot about this matter. Perhaps contributors here at IBA have noticed my posting so little. When that happens, I'm either overwhelmed on the household front or mulling something over.

I've been doing a lot of mulling lately. In between bouts of stress-induced colitis, a malady I never had before the Paris attacks.

Right now this is my conclusion: this (today) is not that (Third Reich, Jim Crow Era).

This today is not a theoretical threat.

I can FEEL the shift.

And I don't mean a political shift. The shift is much more involved that politics and/or demographics.

As Pasto has pointed out: the West is running out of good ideas.

Tuesday, December 08, 2015 7:22:00 pm  
Blogger Redneck Texan said...

“Remember, when you see them go after the blacks, YOU’RE NEXT”

I'm trying to figure out who the "Them" is in this statement.

I'm thinking the "Them" in the story might be "us".

This wouldn't be the first time we (us) targeted a religious minority via executive action.

Its as American as apple pie. Or at least it was until the media and political class were allowed to reshape the American mindset.

Nowadays widespread support for monitoring American Mosques quickly fades away once you ask a Christian if that means their Church can be monitored as well. Even though the probably have nothing to hide, they let their cherished perceived notions of religious freedom keep them from treating one religion differently than another. As if the fact that only one religion was blowing up shit was irrelevant.

Tuesday, December 08, 2015 7:45:00 pm  
Blogger Pastorius said...

I would think Christians would want their Churches monitored. It means more people to sit there and be evangelized.

Christians have nothing to hide.

Tuesday, December 08, 2015 8:36:00 pm  
Blogger Redneck Texan said...

It didn't Go over too well in Houston last year

Tuesday, December 08, 2015 8:51:00 pm  
Blogger Pastorius said...

Oh, I remember that.

That was about PC bullshit.

That's not the same as monitoring for calls to violence and overthrow of the government.

Tuesday, December 08, 2015 9:02:00 pm  
Blogger Epaminondas said...

Redneck, my grandfather an I were watching attenpts to desegregate schools in the South when he said that to me.

THEM is the majority, local or widepsread who SINGLE OUT a group for special attention.

As a general priciple this is SPECIFICALLY what the Bill of Rights is supposed to defend, the individual or small minority from EITHER the power of the govt, or the majority.

It is THIS which Trumo evokes, and I object to on priniciple DONE THIS WAY when it would have been JUST AS EFFECTIVE if not more effective by using a list of nations.

THink, how at the point of landing here would we KNOW someone was REALLY not Muslim when questioned?

These people we are trying to stop have no problem lying, killing, stealing, perfomring ANY ACT in the vein of harming our way of life. They will do what ever they have to.

I'd prefer Raqqa and other cities be a SMOKING SERIES OF HOLES over there to even worrying this issue here.

The president of the USA has it within his executive power to bar ANY GROUP he sees fit to, for as long as he wants.

FACT

McCarran Act, passed by a dem congress and signed by one our greatest presidents, HST.

LEt's be SMART abotu how this is done at this end, and use the ideas of SHERMAN over there to eliminate every last fucker and their pet goats.

Tuesday, December 08, 2015 11:37:00 pm  
Blogger Redneck Texan said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

Wednesday, December 09, 2015 12:19:00 am  
Blogger Redneck Texan said...

Truman didn't sign the McCarran act. His veto had to be overridden.

I understand where you're coming from EPA .... just disagree with you that he should have beat around the bush and banned people from certain countries. I'm tired of having to beat around the bush. Muslims ARE the problem ..... its just refreshing to find someone running for President who isn't afraid to face the backlash associated with speaking the truth.

.... and as a bonus is making Cruz appear to be moderate.

I agree with you that I'd like to see Sherman march from Morocco to Bangladesh. But I'd also like to see Quantrill's Raiders depopulate Dearborn.

I want to see unconstitutional organized communal violence directed towards our Muslim neighbors to the point they either voluntarily self-deport themselves or we have to put them in internment camps for their own safety.

Hopefully that's Trump's next policy epiphany.

As a side note, have you ever examined the long term results of desegregating schools in the south? I'm sure it was fun to watch Kennedy using the guard to force change on us backward hillbillies, but you dont hear much about the current educational experience and level of violence inside those same schools today relative to their pre-desegregation levels. The leftist media provoked the forced change but moved on to the next agenda item and never did an honest after action report. They're criminal factories today. Is that better than the way it was?

Wednesday, December 09, 2015 12:24:00 am  
Blogger Epaminondas said...

Violence in those schools is NOTHING compared to violence which developed where I went to school

THE BRONX

When I was there THAT year, at PS 6 on Tremont Ave the population was 1/3 white, 1/3 black, and 1/3 puerto rican. We have lunch money extortion and NYY kids bat ended that for me (always the smallest kid).
So I don't think a desegragation meme is valid for growth of violence.
You're right about McCarran, thanks, VETO OVERIDDEN

As far as Dearborn, Pew shows that the same proportion of muslims consider themselves americans first/muslims 2nd as do christians, something like 45-45 and undecided.

I prefer to see E Pluribus Unum, and hope our system provides a better basis for this than a Europe which has NEVER been a home to anyone thought of as 'other' (France expelling all jews 4x, and England's multiple crimes in this manner, right through jews not being allowed to own land in several english cities until 2001)

I have to wonder why it seems here and in France, it's the second generation of muslims, educated, in the host nation that conduct these mass murders and sabotage of societies.

But no matter, I have a feeling if Raqqa and a few other places were left looking like Richmond in 1865, or Berlin in 1945, pour encourager les autres, it would cause muslims here to speak out and identify those among them, and if not, then we have a very ugly scenario, and we may well have reached the limits of tolerance.

No nation can harbor within, a sizable (1%) minority which harbors a multigenerational, and potentially religious hatred of the way of life practiced there, and ironically, Trump is LITERALLY pointing us right at that debate.

And there's NOTHING wrong with the debate

Wednesday, December 09, 2015 9:41:00 am  
Blogger Epaminondas said...

BTW, "unconstitutional organized communal violence".. that's argentina

Wednesday, December 09, 2015 9:42:00 am  
Blogger Epaminondas said...

Instead, how about we just pull out the Glock 22's and blow the fuckers away when they show up at the conference room door, instead.

EACH AND EVERY TIME.

And then unleash the FBI, NSA and police investigations into their families unto all generations, and theor mosques and each and every member of their board of directors, and their families unto all generations.

You know, like Lois Lerner did.

Wednesday, December 09, 2015 9:45:00 am  
Blogger Always On Watch said...

I keep hearing talking heads yapping about how we cannot ban travel to the United States on the part of "our Saudi allies."

Where were the Saudi connections with the 9/11 hijackers?

Wednesday, December 09, 2015 12:16:00 pm  
Blogger Always On Watch said...

Redneck Texan,
Muslims ARE the problem.

Yes, indeed.

Wednesday, December 09, 2015 12:21:00 pm  
Blogger Always On Watch said...

Even Muslims born in the West and living most of their lives in the West.

What the hell are we going to do?

Wednesday, December 09, 2015 12:22:00 pm  
Blogger Always On Watch said...

Epa,
And then unleash the FBI, NSA and police investigations into their families unto all generations, and theor mosques and each and every member of their board of directors, and their families unto all generations.

Yes, their families, too.

Harsh?

You betcha!

Wednesday, December 09, 2015 12:23:00 pm  
Blogger Pastorius said...

EPA,
YOU WRITE - Dearborn, Pew shows that the same proportion of muslims consider themselves americans first/muslims 2nd as do christians, something like 45-45 and undecided.

I RESPOND - Wait a minute there, sir. The problem with that stat lies in what it means to be a Christian vs. what it means to be a Muslim.

Am I right, or am I right?

Wednesday, December 09, 2015 1:14:00 pm  
Blogger Epaminondas said...

Yes, of course, unless you identify as an american first in which case there is no distinction (if you are telling the truth)

I consider myself an American first.
My wife considers herself Jewish first.
She teaches with someone who consider herself a Christian first.

We all vote the same way.

Everyone knows what everyone else is up to anyway.


Wednesday, December 09, 2015 1:52:00 pm  
Anonymous Nicoenarg said...

Right. If you decided to consider yourself Jewish first is not going to potentially make you blow yourself up to kill innocent infidels. Same thing can't be said for Muslims who might one day start considering themselves Muslim-first.

Sorry but comparison b/w Islam and Christianity/Judaism doesn't stand. Just because some idiots piled all of them up into one category of "Abrahamic religions" doesn't make them similar.

Wednesday, December 09, 2015 2:12:00 pm  
Anonymous Nicoenarg said...

As for the rest, I agree. Trump should have proposed banning people from all Muslim majority countries rather than Muslim individuals. But then we'd be sitting here discussing right now whether Trump is "racist" or not for suggesting that and how that goes against "all that means to be American".

So in other words, this can't be won by beating around the bush. The fact is that anything Trump might have said would have gotten him labeled Nazi/Racist/Hitler/Fascist.

Sure its "un American" to go against a religion (its debatable whether Islam is a religion) but I would say its probably also un American to let your fellow man get murdered because politicians would much rather appease barbarians than protect their country. I would say its time to pick a side.

Wednesday, December 09, 2015 2:29:00 pm  
Blogger Always On Watch said...

Nico,
I would say its probably also un American to let your fellow man get murdered because politicians would much rather appease barbarians than protect their country.

I omit the word "probably."

Wednesday, December 09, 2015 2:46:00 pm  
Blogger Epaminondas said...

One thing is CERTAIN, the frame of reference for what is debatable has been change and we all owe Trump for that.

Today WaPo said he is causing the people to discuss 'the limits of tolerance'

INDEED.

What's sad is that the people have been so frustrated fo SO LONG by inactive by both parties that all he had to do was touch this exposed nerve and boom.

61% want a total cessation.

And here's the bottom line. 2 days ago Paul and Sessions introduced the bill we talk about here to totally cease all immigration , visas, refugees TMEPORARILY. Religion was not mentioned.

It got 11 votes.

ELEVEN.

That leaves 43 republicans OUT IN SPACE.

61% of the people. 11% of the Senators.

Wednesday, December 09, 2015 11:50:00 pm  
Blogger Always On Watch said...

Epa,
I was reading about that bill today.

We are doomed.

Thursday, December 10, 2015 12:03:00 am  

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