Monday, March 02, 2009

DOW Breaks 7000 – Where’s the Bottom?

The DOW broke through the psychological support at 7000 this morning. So where’s the bottom? 

Bottoms happen when there is a wash out. These are the conditions for a wash out – and we’re not there yet. 

Experts say many of the conditions associated with a true market bottom are missing: 

Not enough fear. At market bottoms, people are scared, really scared, so scared that investors who want out of stocks, get out. As a result, a closely watched Wall Street "fear gauge," known as the VIX, normally shoots to the sky. On Friday, the VIX closed above 49. But that doesn't come close to the fear level on Nov. 20, when the S&P 500 hit its bear market low, and the VIX topped 80. 

"We haven't seen a true fear spike, and that usually means there is another shoe to drop," says Price Headley, chief analyst at BigTrends.com. 

Not enough bears. Too few investors have given up hope and turned bearish, which normally occurs at troughs, says Todd Salamone, senior researcher at Schaeffer's Investment Research. 

The number of investment newsletter writers who said they were bearish last week, for example, was well below the number of bears in November when the lows were put in. Similarly, 56.7% of investors surveyed last week by the American Association of Individual Investors said they were bearish — nearly double the long-term average. However, that was still fewer than the bears present at the panic lows hit in October and November 2008, and in March 2008, when JPMorgan Chase bought Bear Stearns when the Wall Street bank was on the verge of failure. 

"The mentality is, we're down 50%, how much lower can we go?" Salamone says. "If the lows get taken out, those types of investors are potential sellers." 

Not enough good economic news. Stocks historically turn up before the economy. But that hasn't occurred yet because the economic data, ranging from home sales and job losses to retail sales and factory orders, keep getting worse. That is forcing economists such as David Rosenberg of Merrill Lynch to continue to lower 2009 and 2010 profit projections for U.S. companies. Stocks are not going to shoot higher until there are signs that the economy is getting better. And that will depend on how successful Obama's stimulus plan is in jump-starting the economy. 

Another big wild card: how effective the bank rescue plan, details yet to come, will be in restoring confidence in banks and getting credit flowing. 

Watch these conditions for a bottom wash out.

6 comments:

maccusgermanis said...

Whether bears or bulls, each believes fundamentally in private property, differing only on timing and valuation. The entire system is being attacked by an usurping federal power. The market isn't going bearish, for federal regulations pre-empt the bears naturally evolved role. The market is sublimating into the vague memory of trust and mutual benefit that free peoples once placed in one another.

Always On Watch said...

Here's something terrible to think about: Make economic times hard enough, and the counterjihad will be forced "out of business."

Dow this minute = 6818.41

Warren Buffett just said, "The economy is in shambles."

Not quite yet, but headed that way on the Dow right now.

Epaminondas said...

Tip .. as long as they keep seizing banks because mortgages are not performing, the market has no bottom.

The market understands that the wealth of the USA is it's REAL ESTATE, not making things for a profit. So even if GM sells cars, it won't help. There's no US Steel, Kaiser Aluminum as we had in 1940... We build aircraft in the hundreds not thousands, and not by 15-20 companies, 2-3. We have 2 or 3 shipbuilding yards and they build NO commercial ships I know of.

Therefore if that real estate value continues to fall the bottom has not been reached.

When we have 2-3 months of no seizures and existing home prices AND sales increasing we'll see a market bottom.

2500 by Christmas.

The world is going to be redefined.

Happy new year.

Invest in TVP and Jerky. I have extra room in the cave.
;)

Anonymous said...

I am sitting watching in awe as the Dow plummets to 6835.


We are really fucked. This is going to hurt everybody. I must admit, and I have a Ph.D in this shit, I have been like a deer caught in the headlights. The scale of the devastation is enormous, and the only safe haven is gold, but of course for many it is too late. Much of the damage has been done. My heart really goes out to all those that are about to retire.


No amount of platitudes are going to make you feel any better. I have learnt that markets will remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent, and that is becoming a scary reality.

On 6 October 2008, Jim Cramer, a loud mouth CNBC presenter (for those of you that have watched him on DSat), discussed the future of the DOW after an intra-day decline of 800 points.

He suggested that you revise your 5 year plan, "as a drop in the DOW to 7700 is a real possibility."


At the time I contributed to his projection by adding my 2 cents worth, which I continue to stand by and share with you below .............

"The Dow at 7,700? I partially agree, except I think it will be lower, significantly lower. I think it will settle somewhere between 5,270 and 2,550. The reasons are simple. If we take current earnings which are already on the decline, and assume they decline to 2003 levels, which is about another 30% decline, and we then use two PE ratios, the average for the last 50 odd years of 16.54 or we use the PE ratio that seemed to prevail throughout the bear market of the 1970's of approximately 8, we can recalculate where the Dow may end up. So it is not inconceivable to see the Dow decline by another 50 - 75%."


One thing that has really pissed me off, other than rebuking myself for not making what seems to have been simple decisions in hindsight, is that this whole meltdown is as a result of the USA, yet no commentators have focussed on this. It will also be a cold day in hell before they admit it too.


When folk used to ask me about my investment philosophy I always used to joke that a meltdown is nothing to fear because we would all be fucked. Well it is no longer a joke, and we all are.

Pastorius said...

Anonymous,
Very interesting.

Are you American, or British?

Epaminondas said...

Anonymous... THIS IS NOTHING..wait until those retirees look at what their remaining dollar will buy when the currency devalues in order to pay the debt caused by all this off.

I've been saying 2500 for two weeks.

The USA may be an exceptional nation, but we are not exempt from the laws of nature and physics.

That's what capital is.

While you are right... that this is due to the USA..it's because the wealth of the world's financing industry was based on the ever increasing value of American real estate which backed all the invented derived products which take a particle physics expert to BEGIN to understand.

It was not based on the value of goods made and services based on that.