Here is an important question to ponder, though it's asked by a fool like me.
But, before we get to the question, let's see if we agree upon a few axioms (if I may use the term):
1) Western society is the incubator of many ideas and cultural touchstones which are very important to the survival of mankind on a massive and cohesive scale -
a) our science is the result of our thought,
b)our culture is the result of our philosophy plus our religious/cultural values,
c)our arts are the result of our freedom of expression and are also born of the wealth we have (because of our sciences and ingenuity) which allows us to luxuriate in beauty and thought
Ok, do we agree? Are there more "axioms" to add? I'm guessing there are.
Ok, now here's the question:
Is our belief that ALL men are created equal and ought be afforded equality in the eyes of the Law
1) foundational to Western Civilization, without which Western Civilization would crumble
or
2) something we can abandon, still leaving Western Civilization pretty much intact?
31 comments:
The belief that all men were created equal has nothing to do with Western Civilization.
If we date the birth of the West back to the democratic beginnings of ancient Athens, then all men definitely *weren't* created equal. Free men were only a very small percentage of the total population.
If we look back at the time when these famous words were written in the Declaration of Independence, one-fifth of the American population were slaves and only propertied white males over 25 had the franchise.
Even today in Western countries all men aren't created equal. Affirmative Action dictates by law that non-whites and women must be favoured over white men in hiring, promotions, government contracts, educational opportunities, etc.
So while "All men were created equal" might be a nice thought, it never was (and still isn't) a foundational belief of Western Civilization.
As my man Matthew Arnold said, "Athens and Jerusalem."
Jeppo,
Do you really like the Greeks, or does it just suit you for this argument?
I find almost everything you say to be like a marble sliding around on a plate tipping back and forth.
The only core idea you have is that the races can not get along.
Other than that, you manifest no central philosophy.
You are almost a Nietzschean. I would accuse you of that outright, except that I don't think you've actually ever thought things out to that extent.
CJ,
I'm with you; Athens and Jerusalem, but what does that equal?
Culturist John,
Pastorius has a point. I have an idea of what you mean, and I having a feeling He does as well. Maybe through you could expand on what that means. Why are Athens and Jerusalem, the mother and father of western civilization?
If you are just going to say they are the foundations of western civilization, that is kind of vague.
"Do you really like the Greeks, or does it just suit you for this argument?"
I don't know what "like" has to do with it, but I would date the beginnings of Western Civilization to the 5th Century BC and the Greco-Persian wars followed by the golden age of Athenian democracy. This was really the first time that the West was contrasted with the East, Europe with Asia, and freedom with tyranny. Do you have a different definition?
"I find almost everything you say to be like a marble sliding around on a plate tipping back and forth."
Umm, could you be more specific please? Provide a concrete example maybe?
"The only core idea you have is that the races can not get along."
The ONLY core idea? It's true that I think there are major differences between the races, particularly with regards to intelligence. I also think that diversity is a weakness, not a strength, and that "multiculturalism" is a thinly disguised codeword for liberal anti-white animus. That's why I'm opposed to mass third world immigration, as it will inevitably divide, dumb-down and weaken our Western societies. But to say that this is my ONLY core idea is simplistic (and insulting).
"Other than that, you manifest no central philosophy."
I'm a conservative, I don't subscribe to "central philosophies". I want to conserve, as best as possible, the civilization that was bequeathed to us by our forefathers, and hand it off more-or-less intact to our descendants.
"You are almost a Nietzschian. I would accuse you of that outright, except that I don't think you've actually ever thought things out to that extent."
I'm not very familiar with the works of Nietzsche. He's the "God is dead" dude, right? Well I certainly don't believe that, I'm a Christian not a pagan.
Anyway, did you want to make a comment about my above comment? I'm assuming you didn't like it, but I won't know why not until you actually, you know, TELL ME why not.
Until then I will continue to bask in the warm glow of Canada's victory over the US in the Olympic gold medal hockey game today!
:)
Jeppo said: I would date the beginnings of Western Civilization to the 5th Century BC and the Greco-Persian wars followed by the golden age of Athenian democracy.
I say: Yeah, and that's the standard line.
However, the Western project, while it is derived, in part, from the Greeks, is not in any way wholly derived from the Greeks. As Culturist John pointed out, it's Athens and Jerusalem.
Jeppo said: Umm, could you be more specific please? Provide a concrete example maybe?
I say: Why don't you tell me what your core beliefs are, Jeppo? I've never heard you articulate anything except for the idea that we can not get along with other cultures. Other than that, your ideas are a seeming mish-mash of history and philosophy knowledge that you have. Tell me what your core beliefs are. If you don't bother, then I can not possibly be expected to understand you. And, if I can't understand you, then your ideas will seem random to me, as they do.
As to your question of what I don't like about your above comment; it isn't so much that I don't like the comment, or that I disagree, as it is that I think it is woefully incomplete. Western Civilization is a result of a stream of forces, not the least of which is the birth of Christ, the Hebrews, the Bible, the Catholic Church, the Nicean Council, etc.
That would be a more foundational understanding of the birth of Western Civilization in my opinion.
And, I believe, the idea of the importance of the individual human being, and his direct access to God, through prayer, is born in the above historical events and writings I mentioned.
Jeppo,
What major differences between the races keep them from getting along? There are no significant inherent difference between "races." Besides what scientific basis can you come up with for categorizing people based on "race." Also what people belong to exactly what "race?" Is someone of both European and African Ancestor, part of the black "race" or part of the white "race?" The only race that matters is the human race. Whites, and blacks, Asians, Latinos or Arabs, have no inherent psychological differences. What does my "race," say about me? What does it say about my personality, my intellect, and most importantly my character? Let me answer that question. How many Arab Christians or Arab Atheists, have you heard about becoming suicide bombers or shouting Allah Akbar? On the other hand there are a lot of non Arab converts to Islam who then join the Jihad and blow themselves up, or at least murder innocents in the name of Islam. Iran Is an Islamic country, but the people native to Iran do not consider themselves Arab. Iran means land of the Aryans. Did you know that?
Race and Religion are two separate things. You can convert to another religion, but you can't convert to another race. Race and culture are two separate things. Culture is the sum of all learn behavior. It is not innate.
As for intelligence. It is not determined by "race," and what role genetics does play, is very complex, and determined by many different genes not just one gene, and none are related to so called physical characteristics that people associate with different "races." Yes there are a lot of white scientists, perhaps most of them are white, but there are also a lot of minorities who are scientists. Neil deGrasse Tyson is an African American astrophysicist. What about all those scientists who have Asian Ancestry, many of which still reside in their ancestor's homeland.
I'm a conservative, and so is Rush Limbough and Shawn Hannity and Ann Coulter, and none of us subscribe to your racist dogma. Go on Rob Taylor's Red Alerts blog as well. He's pretty conservative and he'll give you a pounding on your racial thinking. Not to mention that he is a pagan. Also atheism and paganism are not the same thing. In fact Rob Taylor despises atheism, so I don't think he'd be a big fan of Nietzsche either.
There are lots of competing dates for the foundation of Western civilization. Samuel Huntington dated it from the East-West split in the Roman Empire in the 3rd Century AD. Others date it from the Minoan and Mycenaean era, or the birth of Christ, or the reign of Charlemagne, or the final split between the Catholic and Orthodox churches.
I date it from the Greco-Persian wars because that's when the West was first perceived to be utterly distinct, culturally and ideologically, from the East. You and Culturist John include Jerusalem with Athens. Geert Wilders also includes Rome with those two. I would call it our Greco-Roman and Judeo-Christian heritage. But the idea of "The West" started in Greece.
I'm running out of time here, so I might not be able to answer your question about my core beliefs fully. I told you I'm a conservative, so I don't have a manifesto to tell me what to think. I'm also an individual, not an ideological talking-point generator, so I might disagree with other conservatives on any number of issues.
You say you can't possibly understand me unless I lay out my core beliefs for you. That makes no sense. You should take what people tell you on a case-by-case basis instead of looking for an overarching theme to attach to their thoughts. For example, I responded to your post about whether the foundation of Western Civilization was based on all men being created equal. I thought I understood what I meant and said no it wasn't, without even considering your overall ideological worldview. It really wasn't that difficult.
@Damien,
I've got no time to respond right now, but I'll happily answer all your questions on a future thread.
Jeppo,
You have no time, or you can't answer them? To claim that the races can't get alone is not only unenlightened, it is a baseless claim. Its also very racist. My culture, my religion and even my own life experiences have far more bearing on my behavior than what ever "racial" category I happen to belong too.
In fact show me what bearing it has.
Jeppo says: I responded to your post about whether the foundation of Western Civilization was based on all men being created equal. I thought I understood what I meant and said no it wasn't, without even considering your overall ideological worldview. It really wasn't that difficult.
I say: Fair enough. I simply do not agree that Greece is the beginning of Western Civilization.
And, now that I think about it, you and I are talking past each other. You are dealing with my question about the Foundation of Western Civilization as a question about the beginning of Western Civ.
The Foundation and the beginning are different things, I believe.
Greece had a nominal form of Democracy, but really what Greece had was a landed Oligarchy. It was fascistic beyond that.
My question is this: As things stand now, what is the Foundation of Western Civilization? What is the most important thing about our Civilization, the thing which, if one took it away, the rest would crumble?
Is there such a thing? I think there is.
Certainly, many things came together to make Western Civilization. And certainly, WC has evolved over time. But, it has become something. It means something. What does it mean? What does it mean to be a member of WC? What does it mean to believe in WC, and to want to fight for it?
What would we be fighting for?
I agree with much of what Jeppo says, except for his racism thing. And, to answer Pastorius' last question, I think the idea most important in the West, the essential one worth fighting for, is the freedom of individual conscience. That was first fought for when the Greeks fought the Persians.
Equality, is not an essential component of that. Toqueville tells us that that is an emphasis in America that is perhaps dangerous. Europe was more Aristocratic and so led to a feel for excellence. Our emphasis on equality lead to baseness. Excellence in individual thought should not be erased by the drive for equality. The West should remember this trade off.
Pastorius, I really love your work and like you personally. But rather than asking for clarification, you often attack people. You have told me many times that I have no philosophy or coherence etc. as you attack Jeppo mercilessly here. If you read my book, you might find coherence. But, to expect me, Jeppo or anyone else to put out a total coherent world view in a comment section is unrealistic.
More importantly, the attack tactic does not bring out the best in folks. It makes them defensive and probably less likely to contribute here in future. I would rather hear what you believe, your positive deep coherent world view, than have you attack others as unsound and shallow. That would make for more constructive dialogue.
Thanks for the very provocative and important post!! The question format is a great one. It is a fine complement to the excellent news stories reportage on this blog.
Thanks again, CJ
the foundation is the notion that we are all free people, none should be born a slave, or forced to remain a serf, or kept in bondage thru the generations
the equality is not in our abilities or attributes or social class or standing, but instead inherent in the fact of our being made in the image of god. so that even the least of us has the same equality of merit. this is the underpinning gifted to us not by the greeks but by the hebrews. so that the notion that you deserve a different class of justice for instance becuase you are rich, or of a particualar race, or gender is thrown down.
this is what is under asualt by sharia, which intends to bring back the dark days of second class or third class humanity, some of whom would be from birth allways subject to the whims of the highr order, allways seen as inferiors awaiting the tender mercies of angry muslims looking for a scapegoat to butcher to thier blood god.
the jews gave us a god that moved us past human sacrifice.
that is one of our greatest western aheivements! and nazism communism islamism wants to bring back the notion of human blood sacrifice,
30+ million murdered/sacrificed under stalin, to the non god of marxism
pol pot, mao, hitler...
the grand mufti in league with the nazis gloried in the blood...
and now the jihaadis are all about sacrificing infidels cutting off heads while orgasmically screaming to thier blood god.
we loose our freedoms as finely set out in our constitution having come down through the ages being crafted and honed from english common law and judeochristian teachings,
and we will have lost it all.
Jeppo,
What do you think of what Rumcrook wrote?
CJ,
You are right. I attack too much.
I apologize to you and Jeppo.
Though, I must say, I do not remember saying you lack coherence. I have read your book, and it is anything but incoherent, and that is why I like having you on my radio show.
Indeed, I have told you I think it is a historic work, and will be remembered for years to come.
I do remember that on one subject, I accused you of using a Will to Power argument, which was Nietzschean in nature.
I think I was right about that. Nietzsche was not incoherent. He was one of the most coherent of all philosophers. But, one must have read most everything he has written to understand that.
He is not a simple philosopher to understand.
And ultimately, though he valued excellence, and strength, he was a nihilist.
CJ,
To deal with your point; the foundational idea of WC is freedom of individual conscience ...
not equality.
Remember, I do not believe in creating equality. I believe we are born equal, which means we are to be afforded equal dignity, and equality in the eyes of the law. It does not mean we all deserve equal outcomes, or that we are equal in intelligence, bearing, creativity, etc.
Where does Freedom of Individual Conscience come from, if not from being, in some sense, born equal?
And, is the Freedom of Individual Conscience simply a right protected by law, or is it an inherent right of all men?
Culturist John,
Alright, I had a good nights sleep, and I'm ready to start anew.
I thought about what you wrote, and I've got a question for you CJ; in what way is better at "excellence" than is America?
I started to think about it and I realized, you know, I think that's an empty assumption.
It turns out we, the bungled and botched, uncouth Americans are pretty excellent at the things we do.
And, as I said, Culturist John is right when he says I attack too much and too easily.
And, I do apologize for it.
But, I'm going to let you in on a secret about my animosity towards Jeppo. It isn't merely the fact that Jeppo doesn't believe that people of different cultures can not peacefully co-exist, it isn't merely the fact that sometimes his rhetoric sounds racist, it is this:
I think Jeppo sent information to Robert Spencer which led Spencer to believe I never had a nice word to say about him (when in fact I've written thousands of kind words about Spencer and interviewed him on the radio, gracioiusly, several times).
I have made maybe three or four somewhat negative comments about Spencer, and somehow all of them ended up in his inbox.
Somebody sent them. And, I suspect it was Jeppo.
Why?
Because I see Jeppos name in the comments section at Jihad Watch constantly, and his name is the only name which I see there, and I also see here.
Jeppo is also friends with the other Loki of the blogworld, Lex (Agent of Chaos).
Lex runs a site where she makes fun of people like Pamela and Spencer and Gates of Vienna and Charles Johnson, and Jeppo hangs out there almost all the time, commneting, feeding information, etc.
I can even appreciate the humor in Lex' site. I find Lex funny. Lex used to be a contributor here. But, wouldn't that be a kick in the pants if I am right that Jeppo was the one who fed the info to Robert Spencer, but at the same time, Jeppo is busy feeding Lex the Agent of Chaos?
So, I'm asking you, Jeppo; did you send Robert Spencer information, for instance, about a comment that I made at Kejda Gjermanis' blog?
Kejda used to be a contributor here, and she is now a contributing Editor at Commentary.
She is a decent person, who does not agree with Spencer. She is a young woman, and she expresses her disagreement in, perhaps, too vehement a manner (but then, look at me, and I'm not young), but her basic point, as I understood it, was that the story of the "Jihad" in the Bosnia/Albania area is a bit more twisted than it is in areas like Israel/Sudan/Nigeria/India, etc. And therefore, Kejda believes, and I believe too, that it is almost impossible to make allegiances, in the Bosnia/Albania area, without finding oneself consorting with very unsavory people.
So Jeppo, I've asked you the question. I hope you will answer honestly.
Pastorius,
Thank you for the kind words on culturism. I did not know you and Jeppo had such history. Now I see why I intuited such attack.
We have achieved excellence, particularly in technology. And, we can find examples of equality or excellence. The US has both. But, I think that DeToqueville was right, we swing towards equality to a fault. And, I believe that there is a trade off between excellence and equality.
One place we see this is in schools. We want equality of outcome and so battle the "achievement gap." We fund Special Education above Gifted programs. Our larger government also seeks to equalize all via healthcare reform too.
I think a greater emphasis on excellence, outside of sports, would be healthy for us.
I think we get a lot of our emphasis on equality from Christianity. It values the individual. In democracy we have also decided, post the 17th amendment, to empower the mob (if I can use that word).
This also manifests in our umbrage against authority. This has merit to an extent. But, if it means not doing homework is justified and "you can't tell me what to do" anti-socialism, it is harmful.
So, yes, equality is a part of the West. And, in terms of respecting individual's right to exist and dissent I could even see it as a fundamental tenet. But, if we see it - as any concept - as an abstract universal that cannot be sullied, it becomes destructive. And, I do not think it as fundamental as the post-Socratic ideal of protecting individual conscience.
THANKS !!
I do not believe the ancient world was burdened with the eugenic arguements that would later be used to defend violent subjugations. Violence was virtue enough to enslave. That greater freedoms did manifest throught Western civilizations does point to an ancient abscence of a belief in unconquerable low birth, and widespread acceptance that freedom is valuable. Where India has long believed that the lowly born cannot ascend, and where Islam has placed greater value on submission, these freedoms have not manifest.
Maccus Germanis
As far as dating Western Civilization's orgin, I'll reach back as far as I can for anything that I can co-opt into the narrative of a developing concept and subsequent realization of individual freedom.
Maccus Germanis
Pasto, you couldn't be more wrong. I think I have left one comment at Jihad Watch in the past year, and that was about a Mark Steyn column. Are you telling me that someone else is using the handle "jeppo" over there?
I have NEVER contacted Robert Spencer about anything, EVER. Got it? The only thing I know about Kejda Gjermani is that she's an acolyte of Charles Johnson who's viciously attacked Spencer and Stacey McCain. She's the very dictionary definition of a "concern troll".
Sure I'm friends with Lex, as you and I have discussed many, many times before. And I KNOW that you know that I've defended you and IBA repeatedly at her blog. Go to her archives right now and take a look if you've already forgotten about that.
And please don't try to pigeonhole me as some sort of hateful racist. I've defended my (non-hateful) positions over and over here, and I'm willing to debate you or anybody else about them anytime. My position is very similar to Culturist John's, except I think that race, along with religion and language, is a crucial determinant of culture and civilization. You might not agree with what I say, but I always try to say it in a polite and respectful manner. A little reciprocity might be nice for a change...
Interesting discussion here.
I've recommended this posting to one of my students. He is taking a Western civ course at a community college.
PS: I'm still around but not posting or commenting much. Just FYI.
Seriously?
It was a gay lover's quarrel precipitated when Spartan king Cleomenes tried to interfere in Athenian tyrant politics and caused two gay lovers to fall out and ended in murder. The result, government by democracy and Athens as we now know it
SERIOUSLY
Jeppo,
Ok, I accept what you have to say. I believe you.
Someone character assassinated me with Spencer, and I'm pissed.
I don't know who it is, but if I find out, I'm gonna send MR over there with his full arsenal.
Always,
It was great seeing you in DC!!!
John
John,
Likewise.
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