The national office of Egypt’s ruling party this morning.
This is not just some protest.
IMHO, tactically, either Mubarak has the support of the Army which WILL FIRE on the protestors en masse, or he is gone
Strategically, if the stories of the USA training certain protesters how to organize and change the govt (via the internet) are true, WE HAD BETTER BE READY TO GO ALL THE WAY against those who will act against these people LATER, FOR SURE.
Here is what the left thinks of the Muslim Brotherhood.
In terms of peace in the Middle East, of course HAMAS IS the Muslim Brotherhood.
In terms of the goal of the Muslim Brotherhood, it is SHARIAH.
Al Ahzar is to their ‘left’.
THIS is Barack Obama’s test in foreign affairs.
Does the American admin. believe that the plurality to majority of people in Egypt want democratic freedoms but not Islamist govt, and will resist the Muslim Brotherhood (which they think is not totalitarian, anyway)?
Based on what? Where? On what historical back ground?
This conundrum is not the fault of the Obama Admin. This choice was made at the time of the Camp David Agreement, and reinforced by every admin since.
When Washington admonished to avoid foreign entanglements THIS is what he was talking about.
I will say again… if the USA wants to be ‘on the side of the angels’ we had better be prepared to GO ALL THE WAY to defend a democratic result of the revolt.
ALL THE WAY.
IRAQ
"W", neocons, you out there?
21 comments:
In their utopian quest to democratize the Muslim world, what hath W and the neocons wrought? Hezbollah in Lebanon, Hamas in Gaza, the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, Moqtada al-Sadr in Iraq, and the heroin-dealing, Taliban-coddling Karzai brothers in Afghanistan. Were American interests furthered by any of these elections? Hardly.
If we forced free and fair elections on Saudi Arabia, does anyone seriously doubt that Osama bin Laden (or someone of his ilk) would be elected Saudi president? The opposition in Iran that we breathlessly supported are a bunch of anti-American, anti-Semitic, sharia and jihad-supporting Islamists, just as determined as Ahmedinejad and the Mullahs are to develop nuclear weapons.
Face it, the vast majority of Muslims around the world hate our fucking guts and want to slaughter us in large numbers. They may want democracy, but it sure as hell isn't in our interests to see them get it. It's only the autocratic strongmen like Mubarak that keep their bloodthirsty subjects in check, and prevent anti-Western Islamist regimes from popping up everywhere in the region.
That's why we should want to see Mubarak's police state prevail over the protestors, no matter how much bloodshed it takes in order for them to hold on to power. Better their blood spilled now than ours later.
Food for thought ... are we better off having WHO THEY ARE AND WHAT THEY WANT out in the open?
How long have we heard 'we don't have the the xxx people as our enemies, just their govt'?
Democracy is good for all IN THE LONG RUN.
People's aspirations to have the govt they want cannot be stopped IN THE LONG RUN
Rhetorical question: Should we pull a Mossadegh and bequeath the results of the Shah (The Islamic Republic of Iran) to our children?
In 1934 in both Germany and Japan it didn't look as if democracy was the answer as the govts elected LEAD DIRECTLY TO WORLD WAR, but now that Germany and Japan are democracies what have they contributed?
It may be that we are DOOMED to repeat this cycle over and over and (if are are lucky, wise, and determined) put a civilization FLAT ON IT'S BACK SO IT CAN GET A CLUE.
If 50 million people of Egypt's 80 want Shariah, HOW can it be stopped (except by mass slaughter)?
If that free will expressed across many nations over there means such nations MUST LEAD TO WORLD WAR AGAIN, HOW CAN IT BE STOPPED?
Epa,
In my opinion, this is not a popular uprising. It is a Muslim Brotherhood uprising, period.
I agree with Jeppo:
In their utopian quest to democratize the Muslim world, what hath W and the neocons wrought? Hezbollah in Lebanon, Hamas in Gaza, the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, Moqtada al-Sadr in Iraq, and the heroin-dealing, Taliban-coddling Karzai brothers in Afghanistan. Were American interests furthered by any of these elections? Hardly.
If it was the National Democratic HQ, I'd probably think "Thank God" and then wonder if they set the fires themselves.
No, I would KNOW that they set the fires themselves. Probably Billy Ayers or Rahm Emmanuel.
This is not a defense... Hizballah has been around since Amal croaked, late 70's, and there is NOTHING anyone did or could have done to stop their growth (including those to whom it was most critical to do so).
Sadr was made popular by the murder of his father, which has nothing to do with us.
The MB has been around in Egypt since the 20's, and the USSR worked frantically with Nasser to stamp them out. Result?
Think the elections in 'palestine' really did anything to affect the rise of HAMAS? Track back to 1987 and think again.
The gains made in sunni and shia hardline dominance are long term movements.
Just as WW2 in the pacific was INEVITABLE from the day the Meiji emperor did away with a closed Japan and ended the samurai. Just as WW2 in Europe was inevitable from the terms of the Versailles treaty. Just as the Cold War was inevitable.
HUNTINGTON
This is what it looks like.
And W and the Neocons and all that...
STATIC
IMHO - You're talking about some guys with a blowtorch looking at a glacier.
That's why backing democracies IMHO, is not a losing proposition. If those nations go for islamist govts as the way to go:
1) They CANNOT be democracies anyway (ipso facto)
2) It what the people will have demonstrably gone for
3) It won't affect what is WRITTEN IN STONE by Samuel H.
The clash of civilizations is NOT a prediction or a warning, IT IS AN OBSERVATION.
Even if 90% of the folks in Egypt are in the streets because of a lack of jobs, opportunity, and poverty this will still have an outcome that enhances the shariah side even if they don't get the total control they want.
The MB can wait. THEY BELIEVE.
The USA is NOT going to slaughter them all to stop this. Nor should we. We don't have to.
Unfortunately for them, at the end of the process, I think they will face a very sanguine american people SOONER OR LATER.
As each nation tilts, and the forces of shariah gain, a little, a lot the obvious will become clear.
Reality WILL exert itself.
It doesn't MATTER what we do. So we might as well push for personal freedoms. It won't matter. Won't be heard, won't be believed.
Those guys all hear different music. We are saying JEFFERSON for our own benefit in the end.
On the day when no two stones lie atop each other over there, we can say ... "WE SAID JEFFERSON" and our consciences can be clear.
Sandmonkey states this is a populr uprising and not MB. One of his tweets:
today's protest is NOT about Muslim Brotherhood & shouldn't be portrayed as such. #Jan25 #Egypt
11:19 PM Jan 27th via web
That siad, even if it's not, then MB is waiting in the wings and Iran is rubbing their filthy hands gleefully.
Also last night I heard early reports of protests in Jordan, though they were apparently remaining peaceful. Have not had time to look into that yet.
Tamarah180, Thanks for the comic relief.
Epa,
So, you disagree that our meddling has expedited the process you are describing?
Pasto,
I'm saying it doesn't matter, but prolly NOT.
What meddling did we do in Egypt?
It's not as if it was Iran '53.
BTW MR, I agree that MOST Egyptian tweeters are in line with Sandmonkey that this was a popular uprising.
But IT DOESN'T MATTER.
Abolhassan Bani Sadr
I think if Mubarak (when Mubarak?) is ousted first will come some type of secular democratic gov't but then MB and the likes will force that out. They will (and already are) co-opting this. If they were in the fore and openly pushing it we'd see burning American and Israeli flags. Let the citizens do the hard work and take the punishment without much risk to themselves and THEN move in for the kill.
But what do I know sitting safely at a keyboard a half a world away?
Because we know how vile pisslam is, MR, we expect the worse.
Pasto -- there have been women at some of the demonstrations. Fox has been reporting it, with video, because they were in fact surprised by it as well.
I don't understand why people are trying to differentiate between "popular uprising" and "Muslim Brotherhood uprising".
It is in the interests of MB to pass this off as "oh, crap, we had nothing to do with this, we just stand with the people and for democracy" because, guess what, it sounds good to the western audience. This is a political spin in my opinion and nothing else. Are all the people protesting with MB? I don't think so but once the Egyptian people have their way, as has already been pointed out, who are they going to elect? MB!
I agree with EPA on this one on most of the points. Once this gets settled (if we can even use that word for the mess the Muslim middle east is), it is going to show their true colors and I am all for it.
Yes, its better in this case that there be a "pro-West" king for a lot of different reasons, but I think whoever thinks Muslims will, in the end, favor the west over their own brethren is really mistaken and needs to study Muslims and Islam in the past. I would rather Muslims show their true face sooner rather than later. And they have already started doing that in Tunisia with wanting freedom for their beards, whatever the hell that means.
Democracy (and Republicanism) are ideas that are Western in nature and can never and will never work in Muslim countries as long as Islam as a system is breathing and expanding its control over the people in Muslim countries.
Liberals (both classical and modern) can dream all they want, democracy ain't going to work here. Not because its the people that are oppressed by the Kings and Sheikhs and Imams but because people despise the idea. The people of Muslim nations WANT, NEED and FIGHT FOR Shari'ah and in the cause of Allah (Fi Sabeel-Allah). Hey you (general) have Iraq and Afghanistan to look at and compare them with Germany and Japan. Let's see what conclusion you come up with.
Whether I am happy or sad about what's happening? Well, I am both. This is bad for Christians and other minorities, and hence I am sad. The stupid "peace agreement" with Israel that only meant "We will not attack the Jews as long as we are weak" is of no real importance in the long run, however, MB in power is more dangerous to Israel than a Hosni Mubarak.
I can go on babbling but I think I have said enough for now on an empty stomach...time for lunch is now!
For the record, I am not saying anything in opposition to what Epa or AA are saying.
I do, however, think that our meddling in the ME has made things worse, and faster than they would have gotten worse had we not been there.
If you are with Epa and AA in that you are not surprised by this, and you think it's a good thing, then great.
Myself, I am surprised. Call me stupid, but I actually thought we could help these people. And, one of my flaws as a human being is, when I try to help, and find that I can not, I get angry. I get angry at their unwillingness to be helped, at their insistence on wallowing in their own shit, and at their ingratitude.
Yes, this is immature on my part, but whatever.
But, whether or not I am being immature in my reaction, the facts remain the same. They are beyond help. Egypt IS worse than Lebanon and Iran.
They are a disgusting country.
And, they will reap what they sow.
The only hope I see in Iran is their Persian/Zoroastrian culture. Other than that, with Islam prevalent, I don't see why it won't be a mess pretty soon.
An evil god will always defeat no god at all.
The greater spiritual aspect is always behind the visible physical reality.
These cultures and philosophies need to be DEFEATED, DOMINATED, ARRESTED, and HUMILIATED, ETC. as they have been so effectively by their more enlightened foes (Europeans) in the past under the banner of their (EUROPEAN)God.
With the Western mindset of 100 years ago none of this shit would have been tolerated as far as any effect it could have upon The West. We would have landed, seized the oilfields and massacred any resistance with nuclear weapons if necessary.
Instead we find ourselves in a position of waiting for them to nuke us the first moment they can!
What we are seeing is inevitable for Mohammedanism when it faces no opposition.
We are doomed.
REMEMBER. An evil god will defeat no god.
Since I am a solutions kind of guy, allow me to quote my favorite philosopher on this subject-
Al Swearengen: Be in my joint in two hours, we're forming a fuckin' government.
Gizawood!
Exactly my point. our civilization has no God anymore, nothing to fight for, no right and wrong, just a deep cravenness. There is no more Christian civilization. Those people being killed now are basically without a government. The only country with any fight left is the USA which incidentally happens to be the most 'Christian' of the Western nations left.
In the Biblical prophecies the Beast, otherwise known as the Anti-Christ, or Al Mahdi IMO, overcomes the Saints. He first tries to destroy Israel unsuccessfully, then overcomes the Saints, then finally conquers Jerusalem.
I see.
I misunderstood you, at first. Now I get it.
I agree.
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