From Kleinverzet:
I am reluctant to post this. It will not make me many friends and possibly antagonize a couple of people I hold in esteem. But I do want to state my views. That's why I became a blogger in the first place: To bother all of you with my (questionable) wisdom. That, for better or for worse, is the kind of person I am.
Veterans of the counter-jihadist part of the blogosphere are undoubtedly familiar with the storm cause by Charles Johnson of Little Green Footballs (LGF). Back then LGF was a leading blog in the counter-jihad, until Johnson, for reasons best known to himself, started throwing all and sundry under the bus, accusing them of Nazi sympathies and other forms of human depravity. The end result, fortunately, resulted in a complete marginalization of LGF and left the counter-jihad (mostly) in tact.
Three years on, and yet again the counter-jihad blogosphere is wracked by a storm of in-fighting. Pamela Geller, of Atlas Shrugs, initially withdrew her support for the English Defence League (EDL) after some vague and unsubstantiated claims the top of the EDL had been infiltrated by 'neo-fascists', turning the EDL into an anti-semitic Nazi party.
The EDL has a Jewish Division, led by a Roberta Moore, who sought active co-operation with the Jewish Task Force. The latter is described as a far-right American group, whose leader Victor Vancier has been imprisoned for terrorism offences. Not wanting to be associated with terrorism, the leadership of the EDL openly distanced itself from the Jewish Division, stating "If they [the Jewish EDL] continue with their plans to forge links with the terrorist JTF, the EDL will have no option but to sever its links with the Jewish division as we cannot support terrorist sympathisers". Mrs. Moore refused to sever links with the JFT, which eventually let to her leaving the EDL (or was she thrown out, after all?). This seems to be the proximate cause of the current rift.
Ms. Geller (and in her wake: Robert Spencer of Jihad Watch) initially denounced the EDL for distancing themselves from Roberta Moore, seeing in it a sign of increasing anti-semitism and fascism within the inner circles of the EDL. In turn, this forced Tony Robinson, leader of the EDL, to publish a statement affirming the EDL's support of Israel as the only free and democratic nation in the Middle East. Moreover, the statement emphasized that extremist ideas, whatever their origin, will not be tolerated.
Gates of Vienna and others published an open letter, challenging Ms. Geller to put up concrete evidence of anti-semitism in the EDL's leadership, or, failing to come up with such evidence, apologize and (re)state her support for the EDL. Ms. Geller, evidently realizing she jumped the gun dramatically, has done the latter, but refuses to do the former, insisting that she didn't really withdraw her support for the EDL, called them anti-semitic fascists or called upon 'genuine anti-jihadists' (1) to leave the EDL. And to put insult to injury, she referred to those taking her to task over her hysterical overreaction as "bottomfeeders [who] just bang keyboards and jockey for position on the bottom of the food chain". By which she evidently referred to the camp led by GoV.
In the mean time the 'recent unpleasantness' (the slightly coy term used by Baron and Dymphna of GoV) has descended into some pretty petty squabbling. As happens so often, the original cause is all but forgotten. What is left is a rather tedious 'he said - she said' back and forth, completely divorced from the issue that started all this. Neither side seems to be willing to give the other the benefit of the doubt, increasing the acromony on both sides. Which is why I initially didn't want to get involved. My dad taught me early on not to step into a dogfight, unless you want to get mauled. Additionally, there are aspects to the whole situation that make picking a side and sticking with it a bit of an iffy proposition.
The fact is: Ms. Geller did initially, and completely prematurely, withdraw her support for the EDL. In subsequent posts she conveniently forgot about that little outburst, making us believe her withdrawal of support was meant as a conditional. This is not what her initial post said. In her initial post, Ms Geller stated: "Now that the person whom I most trusted in the EDL, Roberta Moore, has resigned, as she was increasingly uncomfortable with the neo-fascists that had infiltrated the administration of the group, I too am withdrawing my support from the EDL". And with that she caused the EDL substantial and, as it turns out, unwarranted harm.
To err is human, and this would seem to be a case where personal preferences got in the way of an objective appraisal of the situation. Ms. Geller could have said so, telling the EDL she had it wrong. But that is apparently asking a tad too much of Ms. Geller.
However, her weariness of GoV and affiliates is, if slightly hysterical, not completely unfounded. There exists an unfortunate tendency over at GoV (and elsewhere) to cast the counter-jihad, or the merits of Western civilizations, in racial terms. As just one example I give you a Fjordman essay published on GoV. In an otherwise excellent recent essay, 'When Treason Becomes The Norm: Why The Proposition Nation, Not Islam, Is Our Primary Enemy', Fjordman concludes: "The only way to restore sanity to our countries is to restore the concept that a country is the homeland of a nation of closely related people with a shared heritage" (2).
As far as I'm concerned that is the wrong conclusion (correlation is not equal to causation, I believe. But I'll leave that for another post). It defines a country in terms of blood-ties, of ethnicity, of race. It is a rather exclusive definition that denies or ignores the groups of immigrants that have settled in European countries throughout history and have become an integral part of many societies. In the case of Holland I will only have to point to the relatively large numbers of Portuguese Jews or French Huguenots that settled in the Netherlands during the 16th and 17th century. Over the last century Holland has seen influxes of Chinese, Malukkan, Syrian Orthodox Turks and Vietnamese refugees (in roughly chronological order) who have all nestled in Dutch society and have become valued parts of it.I tend to agree with Pamela and Robert Spencer on this subject. I certainly do not agree with the folks at Gates of Vienna.
If determining whether anyone belongs anywhere is based exclusively on pedigree, as Fjordman seems to suggest, these groups are not Dutch and, more importantly, will not be allowed ever to be viewed as Dutch, no matter how much they integrate and/or assimilate. I know I am going to sound like a left-wing liberal here, but: That is unjustified, unjust, narrow-minded and downright xenophobic. And completely counter-productive: it will breed a lot of (understandable) resentment in groups that do try to fit in, while doing exactly nothing to remedy the problems with groups that reject Dutch/Western society to begin with.
However, I must say, my overall despair (and resulting ennui), at the direction of the counter-Jihad, precludes me from writing on the subject at all.
It's simply too depressing.
I'm glad Kleinverzet decided to post on this, as I think it is a good general summation of the controversy. Go read the whole thing.
But, let me be clear that I simply do not agree with the following sentence:
... this suggests that Atlas Shrugged is no longer devoted to the anti-jihad per se, but is now entirely devoted to the inflated sense of self of Ms. Geller.That is completely unfair to Pamela, who does great, sincere, and impassioned work, whatever my disagreements with her have been.
Let us be clear about one thing. The EDL's problems do not merely lie in the region of anti-Semitism. It has been clear, for years now, that the EDL is rife with people who are outright racist. The EDL is filled with members who are also members of the BNP. Many of the EDL's leaders, over the years, have been members of the BNP. The BNP, for those who do not know, is a separatist party which would admit no non-white members, until in recent years, they were forced to do by law.
It is true that the EDL has attempted to establish itself as a more inclusive organization. To the extent that they have succeeded in doing so, they are to be commended. However, as Pamela has pointed out, much of their racist behavior is endemic, as it is supported by people in leadership positions within the EDL.
48 comments:
I've said this before from the outside it looks Stalinists vs Trotsky-ites.
From the otuside...
WHO CARES...it means counter jihadists are fringe freaks who cannot achieve anything substantial over the longer term
Get what I'm driving at?
Come on, Everyone. Kiss and Make Up. You're all part of a terribly necessary whole.
The problem with the EDL and all similar organizations in Europe is that whilst they see Islam as the problem, a lot of their followers only see the race of the Islamists as the problem. They can't bash the Blacks or Asians, but they see one group doing it so they join up.A racist will only see the race and not the religion, it does not matter to them on which plank they bash them as long as they get bashed.
Gah!
I honestly don't know what to make of all this -- other than to say, "What a mess!"
Let's sum this up: Pamela Geller stated that the leadership of the EDL was rife with anti-Semitism, and when asked for proof of this serious charge, she produces a Facebook page where an EDL secretary, not an admin, named Hel Gower "liked" someone's comment saying that Zionists (specifically Roberta Moore) weren't welcome in the EDL. Well, I'm convinced.../
This reminds me of the time Charles Johnson found the smoking gun, proving conclusively beyond a shadow of a doubt that Filip Dewinter is in fact a Nazi.
The real reason why Geller attacked the EDL, as pointed out by Kleinverzet, is because her friend Roberta Moore was turfed for not disassociating EDL's Jewish division from the Jewish Task Force. The JTF is a Jewish supremacist group that calls for the mass ethnic cleansing and genocide of the Palestinians, and whose leader has been previously jailed for terrorist offences.
And that's it. Geller was wrong, and she's essentially backed down from her original condemnation of the EDL, though without admitting any wrondoing on her part. The end.
«Fjordman concludes: "The only way to restore sanity to our countries is to restore the concept that a country is the homeland of a nation of closely related people with a shared heritage"»
you don't agree with it BUT you have your diversity spying on you and screwing you! lol
Chinese intelligence operations in the United States - Wikipedia ...The Chinese operate in ways that take advantage of U.S. laws to avoid
prosecution. ... active foreign power involved in illegal acquisition of
American technology. Contents. 1 Methods; 2 Nuclear espionage; 3 Cyber warfare;
4 Spy cases ...
en.wikipedia.org/.../Chinese_intelligence_operations_in_the_United_States
«she referred to those taking her to task over her hysterical overreaction as "bottomfeeders [who] just bang keyboards and jockey for position on the bottom of the food chain".»
bottomfeeders??? lol
«If you ever happened to watch 'Inside Job', you´ll see how the rating agencies - like Moody´s or Fitch - gave Lehmann Brothers AAA rating days before that institution went bankrupt. As their representatives said in the Congressional hearings, the rating agencies only give "opinions". They are currently under investigation by the US authorities. These so-called 'agencies' wish to create uncertainty to give room for trading profits. They´re nothing but a criminal organization in disguise with complete and utter disregard for different economic realities. In other words, a finantial and imperialist tool designed to ruin and overwhelm 'rival' economies around the globe.»
DISGUSTING!
Anonymous at 12:10 AM,
I do not understand your point. Are you blaming a particular group for that? Was that the work of the Chinese?
I have to agree with Jeppo. PG and her shadow-of-late, RS redirected their unified response as a personal attack on the blogger team at Gates of Vienna - rather than immediately providing the requested substantiation & evidence for distancing their support for the EDL. Why was that request so offensive?
Like a high school clique, either agree with the unsubstantiated claims of the popular leader of the clique, or expect to be mercilessly castigated in full public view.
PG's negative characterizations of the authors of the 'open letter' as "bottomfeeders [who] just bang keyboards and jockey for position on the bottom of the food chain" demonstrated an incredibly juvenile knee jerk non-defense and shocking insecurity. Tasteless, off-putting utter nonsense.
Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer have a laudible history of not only documenting allegations but consistently demanding the same from opposing viewpoints.
In this turn of 'unpleasantness' it took multiple days before a single screen capture was provided as so called proof for wholesale condemnation of the entire EDL for being over-run with anti-semitism.
Good heavens . . .one screen capture, that's it?!
PG and RS would never permit that tactic used against themselves - and rightly so.
Geller's words, "truth is the new hate speech" came back to bite her in the atlas with such meager 'proof'.
Based on that pathetic redirection and meager proof, it appears asking for substantiation is no longer good form, according to PG/RS (or at least to their tender egos).
Since RS/PG teamed up - the tone has changed. Personally, I prefer the voices of many independent thinkers to a clique mentality. Teaming up on large projects is understandable, but the current shadowing and mirroring of every word is not comforting.
JihadWatch.org was far superior when Andrew Bostom, Esmeralda Weatherwax and Hugh Fitzgerald were regular contributors. Were they too much competition too? I guess I'll never know. But I suspect there wasn't enough room for so much ego centricism.
All the bloggers in the counter jihad movement have their message to deliver from their own unique positions. Many I agree with, some I challenge or outright dismiss.
The goal, the way I see it, is to work diligently to prohibit the incursion of sharia and Islam into the lives of those opposed to it. Should a reader finds racism in focused opposition to a distinctly negative theology, so be it. My goal remains focused.
Shame of it all is, this recent 'unpleasantness' was totally avoidable if proof was initially provided, but instead ended up unnecessarily unsavory and ultimately counter productive. Shame.
HRW
HRW,
Are you unaware of the fact that much of the leadership of the EDL is from the BNP?
Pasto,
1. Please provide proof that much of the leadership of the EDL is from the BNP.
2. What does your question have to do with HRW's comment? Why don't you address what she actually wrote rather than try to change the subject?
3. You're strangely silent about Roberta Moore's (and by extension, Pamela Geller's) connection to the JTF, an extremist group that promotes ethnic cleansing and genocide, and whose leader is a convicted terrorist. Why? Do you think that a racist but peaceful political party (BNP) is worse than a racist and violent terrorist group (JTF)?
Jeppo,
I already made my opinion clear by saying I thought Kleinverzet's post was a pretty good summary of the events. I pointed out where I disagree strongly. Other than that, I think he got it right.
My commentary in the post addresses pretty much everything HRW wrote here.
The thing I differ with HRW on is the origins of the EDL.
As for the BNP origins of some of the EDL leadership.
There is Hope Not Hate:
http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/features/article/26/the-bnp-past-of-the-edl-leader
There is Paul Ray of the Lionheart blog.
It is interesting to note that the EDL is proscribed by the BNP, and described as "Multi-cultural" - http://www.bnp.org.uk/news/bnp-leader-reminds-bnp-supporters-edl-proscribed
There's also lots of information on Youtube, such as these:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSc6UaGoneU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0pWQRlJi_4&feature=related
http://hurryupharry.org/2010/10/16/edl-lies/
I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT STEPHEN YAXLEY-LENNON HAS NEVER DENIED HIS BNP PAST.
Also, it is important to note that this quote represents an example of the way Jeppo expresses himself:
"Chechar makes a valid point as well. With a huge black underclass, a 2000 mile-long border with Mexico, and a hostile Jewish elite, it's amazing that the US has survived this long as a white-majority ..."
http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2011/06/when-treason-becomes-norm-why.html
There are countless examples of that kind of writing on the part of Jeppo, all over the internet, including on this blog.
You still haven't explained your silence re the JTF. Do you, like Geller and Moore, support these violent extremists? Or do you think the EDL did the right thing by disassociating themselves from them?
Hey, if you're cherrypicking parts of my comments, then why not reproduce whole ones for a better sense of perspective? From the same thread:
"According to exit polls, Jews voted 78-19 for Obama over McCain in 2008. In 2010, despite the massive shift of white voters to the GOP, Jews still voted overwhelmingly for the Dems, 66-31. In Holland, Geert Wilders--easily the most philo-Semitic and pro-Israel politician in Europe--received all of 2% of the Jewish vote. Looking at these numbers, it's pretty hard not to draw the conclusion that Jewish voters consistently favour left-wing parties committed to the destruction of white Christian Europe and America over their own economic interests, the long-term security interests of Israel, and even their own personal safety. Do they really hate us more than they love themselves?
Maybe not. Massive exit polling data from last month's Canadian federal election reveal that 52% of Jews voted for the Conservatives, an extraordinarily high number in what is effectively a five party system (conservatives, liberals, socialists, separatists and greens). Considering that Canadians as a whole only voted 39.6% for the Tories, the Jews have emerged as one of the most right-leaning voting blocs in the country. Yes, I'm shocked too.
By my count there are 13 ridings (constituencies, out of 308) in Canada where the Jewish vote is decisive, 7 in Toronto, 5 in Montreal and 1 in Winnipeg. Five years ago, all of these ridings were solidly Liberal. In 2008, the Conservatives won Thornhill, at 37% the most Jewish riding in the country. In 2011, they won 6 more, and almost won 36% Jewish Mount Royal, Pierre Trudeau's old riding, long considered the safest Liberal seat in Canada. More than any other group, it was Jewish voters that pushed the Conservatives over the top from a minority to a majority government.
How did they do it? Staunch, uncritical support for Israel seems to be the primary reason, though a similar platform didn't help the right-wing parties amongst Jews in the US or Holland. Plus it probably didn't hurt that the Canadian "conservatives" are supporters of mass Third World immigration, official multiculturalism, free speech-stifling "human rights" commissions, gay marriage, abortion on demand, etc etc. But there were 4 other major parties far more committed to these and other leftist idiocies than the Tories were. Yet the Jews voted 52% for the Conservatives.
Can these results be replicated elsewhere? Let's hope so. It really is a waste of time impotently whining about the perfidy of the Jews, and their outsized role in the ongoing destruction of Western civilization. All of it may be true, and cannot and should not be denied, but all that's completely inconsequential at this point. If we're serious--I mean REALLY serious--about wanting to save the West, then we've got to slowly, patiently and tirelessly convert this rich, powerful, intelligent and organized group to our side, period. There is no other way forward. Last month's Canadian election proves that it can be done. If you can't beat 'em, then have them join us."
Pastorius,
We are in serious trouble when one of the major groups that are openly defending the west from Islamic fanatics are being infiltrated by Nazis. This is really bad news.
pastorious:
it seems to me that people simply hurl invective back and forth with regard to this controversy between pamela geller and her accusers without really quite having a grip on the relevant facts.
"gates of vienna" has demanded that geller apologize for her remarks about e.d.l.'s problems with anti-semitic and neo-fascist content on comment pages, and with infiltration of the e.d.l. by those who hold such views.
they claim that the concerns she expressed about this were based on "unsubstantiated" facts.
quite frankly, the "gates of vienna" position seems pretty much obliterated by the fact that tommy robinson, in reaction to geller's post, pretty much came out and admitted the accuracy of her concerns, acknowledged them, and pledged to redress them.
geller then published his letter at atlas shrugs, said she would maintain her support of e.d.l. as long as these matters were attended to and adequately addressed.
this before "gates of vienna" entered the ring swinging. what was to apologize to e.d.l. for when they admitted the substance of her concerns?
i have written of this in the following posts. i hate to do this to you, but, i have lost your email address.
http://wintersoldier2008.typepad.com/summer_patriot_winter_sol/2011/07/if-pamela-gellers-early-remarks-concerns-about-the-edl-were-ill-considered-then-why-did-they-find-su.html
and
http://wintersoldier2008.typepad.com/summer_patriot_winter_sol/2011/07/neds-deceit-.html .
i don't know what your policy is about leaving links, i hope i do not violate protocols here. but, pastorious, i wanted you to read these posts, and to maybe bring you up to date on some things you have not considered.
the fulcrum of the whole issue comes down to what tommy robinson said in his letter. i think that "gates of vienna" has consistently denied & misrepresented what robinson said about geller's remarks, in a simple effort to exploit the matter for their own ends. which are turf related. they know that robinson acknowledged pamela's concerns ... he said so in simple english.
read the posts, and decide for yourself.
john jay
http://wintersoldier2008.typepad.com
GoV has in the past, especially as the Vlaams stupidity reached a peak, allowed commenters to extol the VIRTUES of fascism in a very 'wonderful' Chomsky-Faurisson way I am sure, and other wonderful items without a SINGLE EDITORIAL COMMENT IN RESPONSE, and with Fjordman, WHO I HAD RESPECTED OPENED MY EYES WITH writing such as ..." "The only way to restore sanity to our countries is to restore the concept that a country is the homeland of a nation of closely related people with a shared heritage" ...in other words, EIN VOLK, EIN BLUT ... I simply stopped gonig there EVER and never went back, along with the ridiculous LGF.
HERE IT IS:
There is NO ROOM for even the APPEARANCE of racism, fascism or other so called cultural defenses which are masks for them among those who recognize Shariah, and the ascendant form of Islam for what is it.
NONE.
Any taint? SEEEEYA
Cesar's wife, you know?
This war admits NO EXCEPTION, and GoV, EDL, Fjordman, VB the entire lot is FAR over that very very tough line.
TOO BAD, but that's how it is.
There's nothing to defend there if there is an argument over here. They become proof for the Tariq Ramadan, Rashid Khalidi, CAIR think alikes, and AID THE ENEMY whether they LIKE IT OR NOT, or AGREE OR NOT.
DONE
OVER
HISTORY
FINITO
John Jay,
You write: "gates of vienna" has consistently denied & misrepresented what robinson said about geller's remarks ...
I respond; Yes, you are correct. That is a point that Kleinverzet did not acknowledge in his essay. And, I am glad you point it out.
GOV would not want to acknowledge this fact, because they do not really consider it a problem. Their commenters, and even their writers (as Kleinverzet here acknowledges) write the same kinds of things as do the commenters and leaders of the EDL Facebook page, except that the GOV people are far more intelligent and interesting in the way they put things.
By the way, John Jay, I do not mind people leaving links. In fact, I encourage it, given the fact that links are to the internet what footnotes are to books.
The real story here, that no one seems to want to discuss, is the moderate EDL leadership distancing itself from the extremists of the JTF, supported by Geller and Moore. I can't really improve on this back-and-forth found over at VFR:
MB writes:
An important aspect of the Pamela Geller / EDL fuss (see this and this) has been overlooked. It's about the Jewish Task Force (JTF), the organization that Roberta Moore was said to have been linking up with the EDL. Moore ran into difficulty with EDL over this because objections were raised against the JTF and its head, Victor Vancier, a.k.a. Chaim ben Pesach. I can see why. I spent a couple of months participating in the JTF blog because I share its convictions that Israel must adopt the ideas of Rabbi Meir Kahane for its survival. But ben Pesach's leadership is atrocious. A long time ago he was convicted and served prison time for bombing Soviet targets in the U.S. That doesn't concern me too much because it happened a long time ago. Kahane was no saint either. What does bother me is the immaturity and rashness of ben Pesach's leadership and the kids who populate his forums. Kahane's ideas should be presented seriously, not thrown out like bombs for shock value. Ben Pesach is in a permanent state of contentiousness. Anything he touches will sink. For Roberta Moore to have aligned with him shows bad judgment. While I don't pretend to know all the factors involved in this dispute, on the face of it, the separation of Moore from the EDL--or any organization that wants to be seen as sane--is a good idea.
LA replies:
It's enough to crack your brain. On one hand, Geller attacked the EDL as neo-fascist and anti-Semitic, because Moore said the EDL was neo-fascist and anti-Semitic, and because Moore was pushed out of the EDL. But if Moore was pushed out of the EDL because of her connections with the JTF, which as a Kahanist group is seen by liberals and "respectables" as an extremist group, then Moore wasn't pushed out for being Jewish and pro-Jewish, she was pushed out for being extremist. In other words, the EDL in pushing out Moore was behaving the way Geller wants anti-jihad organizations to behave--i.e., excluding extremists. Yet instead of praising the EDL for excluding extremists, Geller denounced and declared war against the EDL for being ... neo-fascist.
Welcome to the incoherent, nightmare world of Pamela Geller's brain, which all of us have to enter into and deal with because she is given vastly more importance and respect than she deserves.
link
Vincent Vancier is former National Chairman of the Jewish Defense League (JDL) in the United States ...
Vancier was the National Chairman of the Jewish Defense League, but resigned in December 1978 after he went to jail for bombing Egyptian targets in an effort to stop the Israeli withdrawal from the Sinai Peninsula. After his release and upon the completion of his probation in July 1983, Rabbi Meir Kahane again appointed Vancier to be National Chairman of the JDL.[3] During the 1980s, Vancier was arrested again, along with two other JDL members in connection with six incidents; a 1984 firebombing of an automobile at a Soviet diplomatic residence, the 1985 and 1986 fire and pipe bombings of an FBI informer's car, the 1986 firebombing at a hall where the Soviet State Symphony Orchestra was performing, and two 1986 detonations of tear gas grenades to protest performances by Soviet dance companies.[4][5] On November 26, 1986 he was arrested outside the Penta Hotel with a tear gas grenade after a fire broke out in the tunnels under the hotel where the Soviet Moiseyev Dance Company, was staying. He was charged with a federal weapons violation and was sentenced to 10 years in prison.[1] Vancier did this in the hopes of influencing the Soviet Union to allow Jewish emigration. According to Vancier, while he was in jail, he became very thin because they wouldn't give him any kosher food until Republican Senator Jesse Helms intervened on his behalf.
[edit] Jewish Task Force
Vancier is currently the head of the Jewish Task Force, a Kahanist organization[6] in the United States which he created in 1991. The Jewish Task Force raises money for the claimed purpose of funding Jewish settlers in Judea and Samaria,[7] puts on television programs through Public-access television cable TV and runs a website with the stated goal of saving Israel, America, and the West.[7] Vancier is banned from entering Israel because of his support of the late Rabbi Meir Kahane's Kach Party, which has been outlawed in Israel and[8] were proclaimed illegal terrorist organizations in 1994 and the groups subsequently officially disbanded.[9]
Vancier has described Baruch Goldstein, who perpetrated the 1994 Cave of the Patriarchs massacre, as "a great hero".[10]
Baruch Goldstein machine-gunned down 50 Muslims in a Mosque while they were praying.
He is a disgusting murderer. Not a hero.
Kahanism is loosely defined as an far-right nationalist ideology of dedication and self-sacrifice for Jewish causes, such as physical and spiritual freedom and safety of Jews in Israel and worldwide. The term is derived from the name of the late Rabbi Meir Kahane (1932–1990), founder of the Jewish Defense League in USA and the Kach party in Israel. Based on fundamentalist Jewish beliefs, it influenced all types of Jews, from non-observant to Orthodox and Ultraorthodox; it has also drawn strong criticism and hostility from the Jewish establishment.
The Jewish Defense League was formed in 1968 to combat anti-Semitism in the United States and to fight for freedom of the Soviet Jews. Not all Kahane supporters were Zionists or even Jewish. However, the term Kahanism was coined later, reflecting the views Rabbi Kahane expressed while he was active in Israeli political life. Chief among these is the idea that the State of Israel should defend itself against Arab and Nazi enemies, and thus should accord full citizenship exclusively to Jews, and that all gentiles should be accorded equal rights except voting provided they accept Jewish Religious Law.[1]
The central claim of Kahanism is that the vast majority of the Arabs of Israel are now, and will continue to be, enemies of Jews and Israel itself, and that a Jewish theocratic state, governed by Halakha, absent of a voting non-Jewish population and including Israel, the West Bank, Gaza Strip, areas of modern-day Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria and even Iraq should be created.[2]
According to Kahane, the term "Kahanism" is used primarily by those ignorant of Torah Judaism to discredit his ideology[citation needed], which he asserted to be rooted in Halakha[citation needed] and the same as Torah Judaism.[3][verification needed][non-primary source needed] "Meir Kahane did not hate the Arabs - he just loved the Jews", said his widow Libby in her November 20, 2010 TV interview.[4]
[edit] Outlawed
Since 1985, the State of Israel has outlawed political parties espousing Kahane's ideology as being "racist", and forbids their participating in the Israeli government. The Kach party was banned from running for the Knesset in 1988, while the existence of the two Kahanist movements formed following Kahane's assassination in 1990[5] were proclaimed illegal terrorist organizations in 1994 and the groups subsequently officially disbanded. Activities by followers with militant Kahanist beliefs continue to the present today, however, as seen below. The official Kahanist website (kahane.org) has been designated as a hate site espousing racist views in which 'Arabs generally and Palestinians in particular are vilified.
Anyway, now that I think about it, I don't really know why Baruch Goldstein decided to gun down Muslims in that particular Mosque. There are Mosques which are preaching Jihad. If the particular Mosque he targeted was involved in PLO/Hamas strategy, then perhaps his tactic was not insane.
Certainly, for instance, in Sudan, I believe Christians ought to be banding together in armies and taking out Jihadist targets.
And, I believe Christians all over the world should be doing what they can to help Sudanese Christians.
Vincent Vancier is the guy Roberta Moore and Pamela Geller would have the EDL align themselves with. Can there be any doubt who the real extremists are in this whole imbroglio?
Two more links from VFR about this case:
Robert and Pamela in the bunker
Bodissey says again to Geller...
Jeppo,
As far as I know, Pamela has not stated that she would prefer for Vincent Vancier to be supported by the EDL.
I think your statement is inaccurate.
First of all, we both got his name wrong, it's Victor Vancier, not Vincent. Here are the relevant bits from the linked article from Kleinverzet's essay:
"The leadership of the English Defence League has distanced itself from the group's Jewish Division, because of its partnership with the far-right American group Jewish Task Force.
The head of the EDL's Jewish division, Roberta Moore, previously announced that the group was working with the JTF, whose leader Victor Vancier has been imprisoned for terrorism offences.
This week the EDL's leadership issued a statement saying that if the Jewish Division continued relations with the JTF, they would sever ties with her.
It said: "A member of the Jewish Division this week decided to link herself with terrorist organisation JTF. This was the decision and wishes of one single individual within the EDL, and does not mean that the EDL is linked with this movement.
"If they [the Jewish EDL] continue with their plans to forge links with the terrorist JTF, the EDL will have no option but to sever its links with the Jewish division as we cannot support terrorist sympathisers."
But Ms Moore said she was determined to continue the affiliation. She said the EDL leadership who had released the statement were "complete idiots," adding: "I have put my foot down; I am the one in contact with the JTF. If some people don't like it, then screw them. There are lots of Jewish people very upset that the EDL put out that statement - and I haven't received any personal messages telling me to cut off contact with Victor."
However, the EDL made it clear that they and Ms Moore were at odds on the matter. A spokesman said: "The EDL never has and never will have any affiliations with the Jewish Task Force. Unfortunately Ms Moore has caused a great deal of trouble and unrest within the EDL because of her gung-ho attitude." End of link.
So Moore lost her position for trying to affiliate the EDL with Vancier and the JTF. But then Geller wrote, "Now that the person whom I most trusted in the EDL, Roberta Moore, has resigned, as she was increasingly uncomfortable with the neo-fascists that had infiltrated the administration of the group, I too am withdrawing my support from the EDL." Which is a lie, that's NOT why Moore resigned (or was given the boot).
When asked for proof of neo-fascist infiltration of the EDL administration, Geller could only come up with that laughable Facebook screenshot, Johnson-like in its lack of proofiness. So though she has never admitted it, it's clear that Geller, like Moore, broke with the EDL because of EDL's rejection of Vancier and the JTF.
Ok, but that is not my interest in this subject. My interest is in the fact that Robert Spencer and Pamela Geller are finally admitting that the EDL is rife with racists.
This has been obvious for years.
Hating "Pakis", "niggers", or anything other race is just as bad as hating Jews.
Pastorius,
I agree, any form of racism or racial supremacy is not only retarded it is immoral.
"The real story here, that no one seems to want to discuss," ...NOTHING IN THIS MESS IS POSITIVE FOR ANYONE.
END IT
EDL, BNP, CCC (here), all of a kind.
They are all KISS OF DEATH.
It's over
Epaminondas said...
"The real story here, that no one seems to want to discuss," ...NOTHING IN THIS MESS IS POSITIVE FOR ANYONE.
END IT
EDL, BNP, CCC (here), all of a kind.
They are all KISS OF DEATH.
It's over
Friday, July 08, 2011 7:27:00 PM
you agree with sharia for family matters in the united states.
Epaminondas agrees with sharia for family matters in the USA.
So, what you are saying is that the only way to fight against Sharia law is for there to be an organization founded and run by guys from the BNP.
That's the only way, right? It could not be done by people who are not from the BNP, right?
people who agree with sharia are calling bnp/edl racists or whatever.
http://www.hopenothate.org.uk
the people from searchlight, the same people who made the campaign for obama.
WHERE DOES HOPENOTHATE GET THE MONEY?
Anonymous,
Pastorius is correct, the truth or falsehood of a claim is independent of who is whoever is making it. Also, clearly there are some people who despise the BNP, but also despise sharia. Heck, we could also find Muslims who are racist and support sharia both at the same time. Its unlikely they'd support the BNP than, but the enemy of one of your enemies is not necessarily your friend.
Just because people who agree with Sharia are many times the same people who say the EDL is racist does NOT mean that everyone who believes the EDL is racist agrees with Sharia.
I have a feeling your ability for logic is not so impaired as to really believe what you wrote there.
epaminondas said the people who are against sharia are the kiss of death. he agrees with sharia for family matters in the united states.
For instance, you KNOW the BNP is a racist party. That's why they did not allow non-whites to join the party until they were forced to do so by law a couple years back.
Tommy Robinson and Chris Renton do NOT deny that they were members of the BNP.
Therefore, two of the primary leaders of the EDL were, indeed, members of the BNP, a racist party.
Are you a member of racist organizations?
I'm not.
i'm not british but my country is in the same mess.
why is that every people on earth have the right to have their own country BUT europeans are under policies that will make them extinct? many of the things that are being done are classified as genocide by the united nations. why is that they don't count as gonocide when it comes to europeans?
I'm sorry, I do not get what you are saying. Please pull the quote of Epa saying that he supports Sharia for family matters, of that he is against everyone who is against Sharia.
Monday, June 06, 2011 9:34:00 PM
So long as Americans who happen to Muslims adhere to the constitution and local law, and want to use Sharia as ****custom**** to PASS ON HERITAGE they have every right to do so.
If they feel a law prevents the proper practice of their religion they have the same redress we all do.
http://ibloga.blogspot.com/2011/06/proof-that-sfs-circumcision-ban-is-anti.html
Oh, I see, you are referring to a comment from another thread.
Ok, so here's what Epa said:
"""So long as Americans who happen to Muslims ADHERE TO THE CONSTITUTION AND LOCAL LAW ..."""
You don't really have anything against Muslims practicing their religion as long as they adhere to the law and the Constitution, do you?
Sheesh, if Islam would do that there'd be nothing wrong with their fucking religion.
The point is, THEY DON'T.
Sharia stipulates that gays and apostates be murdered, and that women be treated as slaves.
There is nothing legal about that.
The problem is, we have too many appeasers who want to allow Muslims squish-room when it comes to legalities.
If we stuck strongly to our laws, then any time a Muslim tried to go over the line, he'd be brought up on charges, either attempted murders, attempted slavery, or sedition.
Simple as that.
I believe Epa would agree with everything I say here.
He and I tend to agree on these issues.
Not that we are some totalitarian entity that demands conformity from our contributors, but in general, IBA stands completely behind the laws and Constitution of the United States.
Most of us, however, believe that preaching for the addition of Sharia statutes into the laws of the United States (murdering gays and apostates, the enslavement of women under Sharia) ought to be considered Seditious activity.
What do you find wrong with what I am saying here?
Anonymous,
Why should we really look down on Muslims who adhere to the constitution and obey the local laws? In fact if they genuinely support the constitution, including freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and the separation of church and state, its not reasonable to lump them in with Al Queda, or even stealth Jihad groups like CAIR. If it weren't for the fundamentalists who want to replace the constitution with sharia, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. Even if Islam is not a benign religion, I'm not going to spend a lot of time worrying about those Muslims who ignore all the really nasty parts of their sacred text, and do not regard me as an enemy because I don't accept their faith.
To WHATEVER UTTER MORON is hiding behind anonymous....
THIS IS THE REAL WORLD.. counter jihad is a MINORITY so small it CAN BE argued logically to be a fringe.
The argument over a group like the EDL now going on is PRECISELY like going to a Tea Party meeting and finding BIRTHERS ARGUING WITH TRUTHERS when what you care about is KILLING THE DEBT AND BRINGING RESPONSIBILITY AND ACCOUNTABILITY to DC.
I don't know why, you galactically idiotic, person , you cannot encompass this iron hard reality of the real world outside of this TINY TINY GROUP, or the reality that if you have engage in a tortuous explanation of why a group not too different from the BNP in such views (FACTUALLY IN RECORDED STATEMENTS) is not antisemitic,
...IT IS OVER. DONE. MUERTE. TOT.
I don't CARE who is correct in this argument. This is a manure fight in a stable no one outside the barn even knows about, and if the door opens all the rest of the people will smell is shit.
I am not even going to respond to the truly comical slur you used, but instead point out that IF THAT IS THE METHOD YOU CARE TO USE TO MAKE A POINT, you are what you despise.
GOOD BYE MONOR
BTW I agree TOTALLY with Pasto.
Muslims adhering to the supremacy of secular law as defined in the Constitution not only have my support as Americans, but my consideration as a voter.
Such Muslims, however, probably have difficulties in a lot of mosques in the USA.
If the people are sovereign and americans who happen to muslims believe that, then the Quran is NOT
God Bless Them.
AND MAKE THEM STRONG
Oh, I see, you are referring to a comment from another thread.
Ok, so here's what Epa said:
"""So long as Americans who happen to Muslims ADHERE TO THE CONSTITUTION AND LOCAL LAW ..."""
You don't really have anything against Muslims practicing their religion as long as they adhere to the law and the Constitution, do you?
passing custom and heritage like the so many sharia courts outhere...
like this?
EU Parliament Backs Down From Making Labelling of Halal Meat Compulsory
http://islamversuseurope.blogspot.com/2011/07/eu-parliament-backs-down-from-making.html
I am not even going to respond to the truly comical slur you used, but instead point out that IF THAT IS THE METHOD YOU CARE TO USE TO MAKE A POINT, you are what you despise.
GOOD BYE MONOR
what slur?
you're the one is calling galactically idiotic, utter moron, moron.
I am not even going to respond to the truly comical slur you used, but instead point out that IF THAT IS THE METHOD YOU CARE TO USE TO MAKE A POINT, you are what you despise.
GOOD BYE MONOR
what slur?
you're the one who's calling galactically idiotic, utter moron, moron.
to damian
to epaminondas
«Islam’s doctrine of taysir allows for hiyla, or the relaxation of Islamic law whenever Muslims find it inconvenient to uphold aspects of Sharia law, like when they are under infidel/Western authority.
Taysir is like a broader concept of taqiyya, which permits Muslims to lie when circumstances call for it, while taysir only permits Muslims to drop aspects of Sharia law when circumstances call for it.» --- ibloga.blogspot
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