Sunday, July 24, 2011

Was Anders Behring Breivik Almost Just Like Me In His Worldview?

Provocative title, huh?

From Jeppo:
Check out this article about Anders Breivik. The astonishing thing about him, at least judging by his writings, is his apparent moderation.

He is not a Nazi, he's pro-Jewish and pro-Israel. He's not a white supremacist, he opposes racism. He's not a Christian fundamentalist, he's pro-gay.

He opposes the BNP and Front National because of their ethnocentrism. He's not even opposed to Islam per se, only Islamism. He's not a member of any extremist political group, but the thoroughly mainstream and centre-right Norwegian Progress Party.

He supports most of the same anti-jihadist blogs as many of us, Gates of Vienna, Jihad Watch, Brussels Journal, Religion of Peace, Atlas Shrugs, New English Review, pre-2008 LGF. Other writers he likes include Fjordman, Bruce Bawer, Daniel Pipes, Bat Ye'or.

He supports non-racial politicians and groups like Geert Wilders, SIOE, EDL. He admires Jesus and Edmund Burke. Authors he reads include Machiavelli, Shakespeare, Orwell, Kafka, Homer, Dante, Adam Smith, John Stuart Mill, Tolstoy, Plato.

He's a fan of Winston Churchill and Norwegian anti-fascist hero Max Manus.

In short, he shares the same political views and intellectual tastes as tens of millions of ordinary people, certainly almost everyone who reads this website. Which makes his well-planned and utterly evil attacks all the more inexplicable.
I have read many articles and posts about Anders the Murderer since yesterday. I have not read his "Manifesto". In his comments, he does, indeed, seem to share many of my opinions.

However, I detect a kind of strategic entryism in his approach. Some of his writings seem very heavily influenced by Fjordman's racialist ideas, which I absolutely do not agree with. It seems that, perhaps, Anders Breivik believed that the "New World Order" was attempting to destroy white hegemony by importing immigrants from around the world to replace what he thought of as the native population.

It seems, perhaps, this led him to a deep-seated anger towards those who he believed controlled the "New World Order" which he termed Internationalism, and I believe he probably equated with the United Nations, and in particular, the European Union.

I will attempt to be more specific in these assertions in coming days, and provide you with links to his various musings. I am just assimilating this whole thing, at this point.

It does, indeed, sound as if Anders Breivik shared my world view on many things. I do oppose internationalism, when international bodies can make laws which interfere with the national sovereignty of the United States of America, the nation in which I live. I do believe the American and European culture is vastly superior to the cultures of the various sectors of the Islamic world. I do believe the United Nations is a very dangerous institution in that, too often, the Islamic bloc determines policy.

But, I am not concerned with a racialist agenda. I do not believe that race determines world view. I believe ideas determine world view. I believe immigration is only a problem when it overwhelms the nations states who are choosing to allow the immigrants to come in.

I believe there is some unknown factor of culture-type X number of immigrants (as a percentage of population) which is assimilatable (made up a word here) over a certain period of time. I believe that, though there have never, to my knowledge, been any studies to support that idea. I find it downright bizarre that there have been no studies on this subject, given the fact that it is, actually, one of the most important issues facing Western Civilization.

I am married to a dark brown-skinned first generation immigrant. My family looks like the United Nations. My in-laws are more traditionally "American" and "Conservative" than I am myself. By that I mean, they love Ronald Reagan, and they are convinced that America is an exceptional nation with a blessing laid on us by God Himself. They believe these ideas down to their very soul. I am more of a Postmodernist Christian who only half believes anything, other than those things which are demonstrably true as they stand before my very eyes.

For instance, I believe that stoning apostates and gays to death is downright evil. I also believe that no human being has the right to determine the choices of another adult human being, and when they attempt to do so it is called slavery. Therefore, it is clear to me that Islam, in general, advocates the enslavement of women. I believe these things because my own experience tells me that

1) individual human beings ought to have autonomy in determining what kind of life they want to lead, as long as their choices do not end up violating the property or bodies of other individual human beings

2) individual human beings are born with various inborn tendencies, among them being various predispositions with regard to sexuality. Somehow, it seems that sexuality is intimately tied with our individual wills as human beings. I do not profess to have an extensive Philosophy on this idea, but it seems self-evident to me. I believe adult human beings ought to be able to freely choose how they express themselves sexually with other adult human beings, as long as they do not harm the bodies or choices of other adult human beings. 

Because I believe these things, I believe Islam, as a body of ideas, is evil. That does not mean that I believe that all Muslims believe these things, nor does it mean that I believe most Muslims are evil. I believe Muslims, as individual human beings capable of making their own choices, are evil to the extent that they believe these fundamental Islamic ideas (that gays and apostates should be stoned to death, and that women are the property of men) and are willing to live by these ideas to the point where they are willing to deny the individual choices of their fellow human beings.

I also believe that all these things I am writing are so self-evident that it is absurd that I should even have to write them. However, it seems we live in a world of people who are so scared to have conflict with other people that they have become unwilling to stand up for very fundamental Freedoms.

I find that pathetic.

Anyway, the point here is, it does seem like Anders Behrins Breivik did, according to those things I have read (so far) which he wrote, share a world view with me, and many of us here at IBA, and it seems to me, he shared a world view with many of the other people I know in the "Counter-Jihad" movement.

However, no other counter-Jihad person of whom I am aware has advocated doing anything like what he chose to do, and certainly no one else has ever done anything like that before.

Anders Behrins Breivik is a murderer. That's what he is. By his choices, he not only impeded on the choices of other humans beings, he took away their right to make any choices ever again, because he murdered them. There is no greater violation of individual human sovereignty.

He is a monster, and he will go down in history as a monster, whatever ideas he expressed.

UPDATED THOUGHTS - I have read it stated that Breivik's Manifesto promoted terrorism as a solution. I wouldn't know. I haven't read it.

But, having thought about this more, my differences with Breivik, Fjordman, or any other Counter-Jihad blogger, seem to have nothing to do with what motivated Breivik to pick up a gun and murder children, nor with what caused him to fill a truck with fertilizer and bomb a building.

Earlier in this post I stated that I believe "ideas determine world view". From what I have read of the ideas Breivik stated on fellow counter-Jihad blogs, it seems that there is nothing inherent in those ideas which would lead to his decision to use terror as a means to accomplish his goals.

I'm sure we will learn more. But whatever we learn about him will not have nearly the impact of the malevolent actions he has already taken.

24 comments:

Reliapundit said...

BRUCE BAWER - LIBERAL, GAY, ANTI-JIHADIST JOURNALIST LIVING IN NORWAY:

Norwegian television journalists who in the first hours of the crisis were palpably uncomfortable about the prospect of having to talk about Islamic terrorism are now eagerly discussing the dangers of “Islamophobia” and “conservative ideology” and are drawing connections between the madness and fanaticism of Breivik and the platform of the Progress Party. Yesterday’s events, then, represent a double tragedy for Norway. Not only has it lost almost one hundred people, including dozens of young people, in a senseless rampage of violence. But I fear that legitimate criticism of Islam, which remains a very real threat to freedom in Norway and the West, has been profoundly discredited, in the eyes of many Norwegians, by association with this murderous lunatic.

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/a-double-tragedy-for-norway/2/

Damien said...

Pastorius,

I really want to know why Breivik did what he did. Why on earth did he murder innocent people? What made him tick? I do not see you as the type of person who would murder innocent people. Something about you, and him must have been different, but what?

Pastorius said...

Yeah, I wouldn't do something like this, that's for sure.

Apparently, his manifesto advocated terrorism. I have not read his manifesto.

RT said...

What if his target selection had been a Mosque at Friday prayers in Lahore and a Madrassas retreat on an island just west of Karachi?

..... I might of had to hang a picture of this guy on my wall.

From what I can tell, the only major ideological difference between myself and him appears to be his irrational preference of role playing games over first person shooters.

..... I think a blood chemical analysis might reveal that this guy might have been taking some medications that suppress the normal human inhibitions that keep us from acting on our more violent instincts.

Pastorius said...

Interesting thought, RT. Seems very possible.

Damien said...

RT,

Attacking a Mosque wouldn't have done any good either. If the people in the Mosque had not attacked anyone, it would have still been a terrorist attack, and if innocent people were killed, Muslim, or non Muslim, he'd still be a murderer, and it would not help solve our problems.

Unknown said...

Damian.
As far as i see it ,he blamed the government for the Islamification of the country ,the island youth retreat of Norway's ruling Labor party was in his twisted mind the 'perfect' target to hurt the establisment.God knows what went on in his sick mind after planning this for years.

Anonymous said...

usually these guys end up dead and so the slow inexorable creep towards the truth coming out is is stopped forever and it allows for the flowering of conspiracy theories galore.

this guy is alive and although evil and sociopathic seems to be able to make acount of his actions unlike jared word salad laughner who is crazy and incoherant.

this will have fallout for years to come, unlike the shooting in arizona which was more like a car accident, terrible fallout for individual lives but less so culturally.

I cant see the future but I can see liberal socialists reaching into their usual bag of tricks and coming out with more laws to restrict freedom and control thought.

Alexander Münch said...


Damien,

You really want to know why Breivik did what he did?
Why on earth did he murder innocent people?
What made him tick?
All the other monstrosities that accrued during ... lets say the past 100 years, are clear to you?
Did you know, that 80% of the Raped Norwegian Wimin were "done" by ... hummm ... what's the PC word ? ah!... "Non - Europeans" !
Did you know, that there are no Israeli Innocent people?
The slaughtered family in "Itamar" was on FBI top wanted list especially the psychopath three months old Hadas !...
The thing that really worries me, is how many latent (Dormant) Breiviks are "hidden" right now in UK, Belgium, Italy, France - (Just to give you the taste of nightmare... )
==============
Leave Pasto alone!

He doesn't have a sole of a killer !
==============
P.S.
Before you read Breivik's "Manifesto", read the "Hamas Charter" first !...

Epaminondas said...

This is bullshit Pasto, no amount of people saying Breivik claims he is not a racist, makes him NOT A RACIST.

HIS ACT DECLARES HIS RACISM.

You do not machine gun kids because you are NOT A RACIST.

You do not bomb the PM's office because you have rational reasons for being against unlimited immigration which you feel endangers your culture.

Jeppo get real dude.

HE AIN'T IBA MATERIAL.

Pasto, forget the crap.

This guy will be a measurable amount of damage to those opposed to Sharia, but not for too long. It cannot be otherwise.

Those who represent the ascendant form of Islam will do something to remind everyone who they are sooner or later. They cannot do otherwise since it is their individual responsibility before god to do so.

He is Charles Whitman, Manson, Baruch Goldstein, Ted Bundy.

That's all.

Damien said...

Alexander Münch,

I haven't read the Hamas Charter, but I've heard about what it says from reliable sources, and believe me, its not nice, so I think I know what you're getting at. However, it still does not justify Breivik's actions. None of the people he attacked had anything to do with the "Hamas Charter"

As for Pastorius, I never said he had the sole of killer. I'm not attacking him.

Damien said...

Epaminondas,

You are correct, but not all terrorists are racists, and some violent acts have nothing to do with race. I'm not condoning racism, in fact I hate racism, but Breivik's violent acts may have had nothing to do with race.

Pastorius said...

Epa,
With all due respect, I don't think you read my post very well.

Here is one section from my post:

I detect a kind of strategic entryism in his approach. Some of his writings seem very heavily influenced by Fjordman's racialist ideas, which I absolutely do not agree with. It seems that, perhaps, Anders Breivik believed that the "New World Order" was attempting to destroy white hegemony by importing immigrants from around the world to replace what he thought of as the native population.

It seems, perhaps, this led him to a deep-seated anger towards those who he believed controlled the "New World Order" which he termed Internationalism, and I believe he probably equated with the United Nations, and in particular, the European Union

Anonymous said...

I will be called simple minded but I'm not buying this meme being peddled about this Norwegian animal.

This animal is a cookie cutter description of what the left and Islamists have said about their opposition.

This "manifesto" has lifted words from the Unabomber. Something is very off about all of this. This animal had help and lots of it.

His Facebook account was pretty new and it was altered. First no mention of religion and politics then suddenly he's an Apostle gone mad. Christian and Conservative appear on his page. I believe right before his account was shut down.

This was packaged too nicely. It benefits the left and the Islamists in Norway. Speaking of which. Norway has had a problem with rape. ALL rapes of late have been committed by...Muslims. One on the steps of Parliament! With all that anger he had towards Muslims yet he was willing to have a "cautious alliance".

Sorry not buying this narrative.

Pastorius said...

For the record, that stat on the rapes in Oslo is inaccurate:

According to the original Norwegian police report to which I linked, there were 152 rapes in Oslo, of which 93 were committed by Norwegians, 19 by other kinds of Europeans, 16 by Africans, 14 by Middle Easterners, 7 rapes by Asians, and three rapes by Americans.

https://www.politi.no/vedlegg/lokale_vedlegg/oslo/Vedlegg_1309.pdf

Epaminondas said...

Pasto... with respect.. you are reading this manifesto looking for logic?

For something rational?

Charles Whitman.

There is no narrative.

But you are right, we are in the water on and off all day and this is not exactly what I want to think about when I believe it a waste of time except as it is a tool for others elsewhere.

Jeppo, why do you give the LEAST credit to this:"Over and over in Breivik's comments at Dokument.no and in what I've seen of his manifesto, he denounces racism and pronounces himself an anti-racist."

He just killed 100 people for a reason and it wasn't open immigration by those different from him

His manifesto = Theodore John "Ted" Kaczynski's.

Anonymous said...

Pastorius,

I've been doing a lot of reading and going by the stats you presented I was wrong. I must have intertwined isolated cases with comments on said posts.

I stand corrected and apologize for misinformation. Wasn't my intention.

Pastorius said...

Epa,
YOu are misreading my post.

If you want to discuss it, I will discuss it with you via email.

I am not going to argue with you on this post. Nor am I going to simply stand here and be told that I am supporting, or even ignoring, racism.

It is not true. And, I am not going to let it stand.

Everytime you repost that idea, I will simply say, you are wrong, and you are misreading my post. If you continue to write it, then I will write a post in which I explain how you are wrong, but I will not argue with you in this comments thread, because we've gone back and forth twice and, in my opinion, you have not actually dealt with the meat of what I wrote.

Alexander Münch said...

Pasto,

Where did you get your nubers from?
See this :-
http://goo.gl/TEj64 
and then read this :-  
http://goo.gl/FG3Nr 
( Use Google Translate )

ronmorgen said...

What a person thinks he stands for is not always what he ends up doing. We can deceive ourselves into thinking we believe in all the right things and even write them down, and then go the other way. This may be the case with Breivik. Of course I don't know that he did not espouse violence as a solution. If he did, then we definitely don’t have an identical ideology. In either case I'm not going to own his crime because of a barrage of condemnation from the left. His actions don't tarnish me and certainly my righteous beliefs don‘t tarnish me. End of story.

Anonymous said...

According to the original Norwegian police report to which I linked, there were 152 rapes in Oslo, of which 93 were committed by Norwegians, 19 by other kinds of Europeans, 16 by Africans, 14 by Middle Easterners, 7 rapes by Asians, and three rapes by Americans.

https://www.politi.no/vedlegg/lokale_vedlegg/oslo/Vedlegg_1309.pdf




that's not the information that was releasded before. did they change it?

did you know many muslims are counted as norwegian?

Anonymous said...

You do not machine gun kids because you are NOT A RACIST.


he killed white people.

Epaminondas said...

"I am not going to argue with you on this post. Nor am I going to simply stand here and be told that I am supporting, or even ignoring, racism."

Now you've lost/misread me. Where do you think I said that?

I'm probably referrng to some of Jeppo's remarks.

BTW, since we now know Breivik was a member of Sweden Democrats, a site/group we have commented on before as far back as the VB thing, I find it hard to believe, given the commonality of our stances that you could dream I would think that.

Anonymous said...

The Long Horn Method, or Both Sides Now...

I wondered what kind of weapons and explosives were used. (I spent 20 plus years in the military reserves in law enforecment and intelligence related fields, 30 plus years in Goverment Contract Security and I have a BS in Criminal Justice.) The exlosives appear to be a small amount of high velocity with a larger amount of low velocity type for the several I.E.D. devices. His firearms consisted of a Glock 17, 9MM Parabellum pistol with magazines that hold 17 or more rounds (Saddly 33 round verions are available to anyone with the money and who can do and internet search.) and a Ruger Mini 14 in cal.223 remington/5.56MMx45MM NATO with magazines available that hold from 5 to 30 rounds. (The rifle was dolled up in such a way as idiot PX Commandos do to make their toys look sexy.) He originally applied for the rifle license to the police to hunt with and the pistol to target shoot at a club with. In Norway, the Deer, Elk and Moose are hunted with 6.5MM, 7MM, 8MM, .308, 30-06, .300 Win Mag and simular hunting rifle cartriges. .223/5.56MM is not a suitable hunting caliber for large game, but it is a military or varmit caliber. The Glock 17 is hardly a bullseye target shooter's weapon. It is a Self defense, Police and Military pistol. He did a lot of killing with these two weapons. The explosives kill was only 1/5 the kill ratio of the total sad death toll of the innocent young people killed. (Now law abiding firearms owners will suffer and be scapegoated for the acts of one man with new fiearms regulations and bans by a liberal Western government beacuse the police failed to screen a crazy as the did at Dunbane.) How did one man cause so much death in 90 minutes and execute such a complex plan? I don't have enough facts to determine this. The wackos on the internet claim the evil "MOSSAD" is behind this! While not impossible in this day in age; I have a hard time believing even they wound be so wreckless, but they have conducted more than one black operation on Norwegian soil in the past 30 years. If we apply Occram's razor, the simple direct and logical answer is this guy is just a plain lone wolf totally nuts individual passing under the radar and the mask of sanity has fallen once again. Has anyone ever head of the Phineas Priesthood in the U.S.? They should give anyone pause on how a lone crazy individual is hard to detect and deter. My prayers with the people of Norway who lost children, family and friends in Norway. May they find peace in this some way?