Pamela Geller asked that people bring flags rather than political signs to her 9 - 11 protest against the Ground Zero mosque. In fact, she originally said she'd confiscate anything other than flags. Furthermore, she said terrible things about the August 22nd Anti-Mosque rally at Ground Zero. And, I want to bring a sign that says, "Stopping Sharia in America is Culturist not Racist."
I respect Pamela. She is a relentless anti-Jihadist and I have seen her at a million rallies. But at none of those events were we in the audience told what to say. I have a gut reaction against all who would stifle the voice of the public. But respecting Pamela, I assume there must be some good served by not letting the people vent their spleen as they see fit.
If I get it, Pamela argues that it is more sensitive to 9 - 11 families to bring flags. I think crowds battling the enemy head-on with signs that say "No Sharia Here" will do more to lift 9 - 11 families' feelings than indulging in vague patriotic platitudes. To me, identifying the enemy and saying "never again" respects the victims. I know at least some 9 - 11 families feel the same way.
So when Pamela's people ask me to put away my sign, should I? Is there something I am missing? Am I being a jerk? I think this rally should represent the same defiance of Sharia than all the others. Perhaps that defiance will come from the speakers. Perhaps there is strategic point I am missing. I plan on bringing my sign. Should I? Would my bringing a sign prove that I am a big jerk?
32 comments:
I understand your reservations in following this dictate.
I'm not thrilled about it either.
Knowing Pamela, I seriously doubt this is any kind of dhimmified move towards moderation on her part. Instead, I'm guessing there are forces at work behind the scenes which require her to put out such a request.
Given my respect for her, I would not show up with a sign or anything of the like, since you would be causing injury to her hard work.
That being said, I would hope she would reveal her reasoning, and if it is not sufficient, I would not follow it again.
I hear ya. But, in a sense, I don't think that this is her rally. THousands came to the prior rally. They weren't her people. And, I don't know that she owns 9 - 11. I mean, if not for her, we'd have another rally there. Still, I get your point and am clearly torn between being a moderate pawn and being a jerk.
Did she say anything about t-shirts? If not, you may be able to get around this by getting one that says what you want.
Just a thought.
I'm with you on this. I am curious myself why she is banning signs.
Culturist John,
I think that she's really worried about how some of the things on the signs might be interpreted and she doesn't want to have to decide exactly what words are acceptable or unacceptable.
It's time to take the gloves off and force the issue IMO. Lets see where everybody lines up. The longer we avoid confrontation the more vicious it will probably be when it INEVITABLY occurs. A large segment of our population is set on dragging us and our children down to a slow painful defeat. They must be confronted without fear or we will lose this, we will lose everything. I'm not a revolutionary or a warmongerer, but I know my history and I can see the clear writing on the wall at this point. The steady moral and educational decline of our culture MUST be stopped or we are doomed...period. We got a good bump coming in Nov. , but the next idiot coming down the pike will probably make the Man-Child look like some kind of statesman.
Are good old fashioned American values worth fighting for?
The enemy clearly thinks they're worth fighting against.
Christine,
I like the creativity. Perhaps a TEA shirt.
Damien,
You mean as "racist"?? Well interpret a deep seated antagonism to Sharia. It is culturist, not racist. It is rational, not irrational. Short of terrorism we may not have another chance to explain sharia again. Our previous rally had so many Sharia signs it couldn't be missed.
A sea of American flags says what?
CJK,
I tend to agree with you. To be honest, I might be a jerk. I don't even see what the hullabaloo is about the Koran burnings. Sensitivity? Give me a break. Who are we afraid of offending? Iran? Indonesia? The few domestic Muslims? Shall we submit? Is the "sensitivity" cry not just a soft form of Sharia style of submission?
I don't know if ya'll picked this up, but culturism is firmly on our side. I do not want to invade other nations, because of apathy. But, on our soil I do not fear offending the other. Hell no to the mosque. Why? Because it is not un-American, but anti-American.
Am I a total jerk or what? Perhaps I'll think better of it upon sober reflection.
cjk,
You're making sense.
CJ,
Are you saying you're not sober?
;-)
Well, the beers have gone way to coffee as I am at a market to work on a new video.
If I was the only one who brought a sign to the rally and it mentioned Sharia, it would be great. But, I think many of us who go to every rally are going to defy the sea of colors and sensitivity tactic.
So far, this discussion has not convinced me as to why bringing signs about Islam to a protest of a victory mosque at the site of a horrid terror attack is wrong, mean or stupid strategically.
Make sure to get photos, please.
I think she is wrong.
No one can attribute anything on a sign to her. It is the sign bearer's message, not hers. You have a right to express your views as much as she does.
My donation went to her to help support this event, not for her to tell people what they can say or do.
Take your sign, John. It's a free country. She needs to respect that. How can she even tell anyone they can't carry a sign on public property?
Forgot my initials above.
I love Atlas Shrugs site and Jihad Watch, but sometimes our side appears to tip toe around while our enemies roar like lions without fear
They continuously make outrageous statements, outright lies, false accusations, ETC. at every whim. I think a lot of people are waiting for a strong fearless leader to face these freaks head on and .stand up for us. I see a guy like Christie stand up to the NEA shitbags and I'm delirious with joy. I can't be alone
Culturist John,
In response to what I wrote, you wrote,
-----------------------------------
You mean as "racist"?? Well interpret a deep seated antagonism to Sharia. It is culturist, not racist. It is rational, not irrational. Short of terrorism we may not have another chance to explain sharia again. Our previous rally had so many Sharia signs it couldn't be missed.
A sea of American flags says what?
-----------------------------------
I understand your point, and it is a valid one. However, one thing you may have over looked is that a sea of American flags will say that the people there see themselves as Americans first an foremost. I don't entirely agree with Geller, but she's not the only one who took that position on this. From what I understand, Robert Spencer also shares her opinion on the matter.
Damien,
So that will make us look like good Americans and not a racist mob? That may be true. I understand that premise and could almost buy it.
But if the other side then brings out their own sea of flags, have we done anything significant?
People often hide behind the flag to shut down discussion (to question that premise is unpatriotic). Our leaders have been playing that card; Obama and Bloomberg have both said supporting the mosque is the American thing to do. That means don't question it. And then, from that premise, the debate is just "It is American" "It isn't."
Claiming the flag is sort of weak rhetorically and not full of substance. That is why I like culturism more than patriotism, btw, it ties us to our heritage, not just nation because it is our nation.
Culturist John,
I agree, You have a point there. However, unless you are able to talk to Geller or Spencer in private, and convince both of them to change their minds before September eleventh, there isn't much that can be done to change their policy.
And that's less than two days away.
Damien,
All I can do is defy their policy by bringing a sign. They aren't going to confiscate them. Who would do it?
But perhaps they are looking at it from the media coverage angle. If few of us get to speak to the media, then perhaps the vision of American flags would have some resonance. And, that would make a nice backdrop to the words condemning Sharia.
I think though it is just to show we're loving warm welcoming people without hate who only care about the feelings of victims. I am on record as saying that is a weak strategy.
By the way. Tonight two very high spot lights are going into the skyline of Manhattan where the towers used to stand. It is lovely. And, perhaps not coincidentally, a block down from me an entire tenement building is draped in a massive flag. Wow!
maybe she is thinking of possible sign carrying leftist 'plants'..
C-CS
They're going to burn the Koran on the same day in Florida and they're worried about signs?
Carry the damn sign, John. It's your Right.
The ONLY good reason I can see for this ban on signs is if this is a one-time tactical decision because there are going to be hysterical mooslim and libtard counter-demonstrators, who are going to look like the scumbags they are by waving hateful signs and screaming at protestors holding only flags. (And as Culturist John points out, the other side could play the flag card too.) I'm assuming the speakers will not be confining themselves to "sensitivity" issues. (If they do, we've got a big fat wasted opportunity.)
And I mean that is the ONLY reason I will go along with this as a one-time thing. For the rest, get the ugly truth about Islam and the Koran and the Muslim Brotherhood and all the rest of the crap out there loud and clear and keep it in their faces. Cjk is absolutely right -- if we do not defy Islam openly, we will be forced to submit.
In my view, the ban on signs is all about public relations and the expected media coverage.
Me? I would follow "the rules." But not happily.
I am going to try to find time to make a sign and bring it. And, if I get too much flack, I'll throw my anti-Sharia, pro-culturism sign in the trash. I'll put a photo on my facebook page.
Thanks for the discussion all, John
There is a valid point to avoiding providing a target for the enemies of freedom of speech.
Like avoiding giving the other team a pic to put up in the locker room, writ large.
More, given the example of the incredible success of this at the Beck rally, a DISCIPLINED uniform message may be the outcome desired, by the presence of the crowd itself, and it's demeanor.
I get what she is doing. I'm not excited by the requirement, but you have to admit, one religious/skin head/Koch type whack job with a sign COULD end up providing a bonanza for the other side of this thing.
It's not a valid point. This is what 'we' as a group of people who hold dear historical, traditional American values have been doing for 9 years and some will say 50 years and where has it gotten us? Defeat, slow agonizing defeat while we watch everything we believe in slowly DIE.
Our enemies exercise every outrage daily at their whim while we walk on eggshells.
What if a skinhead were to appear on all the news outlets? You mean like all the racists who make up a good percentage of ANY given demonrat rally? We couldn't get that many racists at our rallies if we sent them out invitations!
I'm not a skinhead, racist, or bigot so why am I always kept on the defensive, on my heels while the opposition is dead set on assaulting me? The good decent people are being defeated by this leftist strategy which is working like a charm because we are good and decent while they aren't.
I say we do good as we think, disavow the idiots among us, but Lord knows we have to stop this eternal defensive poise which will only guarantee us a sure slow agonizing defeat.
Please everyone think about this.
cjk, if we WANT a winning political movement it's not going to be one if it CAN BE FRAMED SO THAT IT WILL BE PERCEIVED as one that condones whackos.
As one who has actively defended Pam on the SPLC site from their hate smear, I can tell you, it doesn't take much in the way of PORTRAYABLE FACT to make a smear damaging to the entire movement.
If it is COMPULSORY in defending free speech that we win, certain disciplines in this path to victory are essential.
That's not being on the defensive, it's managing the ability of those who do not see what loss in this war will mean to convince the MASSES that what we have to say is EXTREME.
And it is the masses in the center, that 70% who recognize the RIGHT to build and recognize it should not be built that must always be the target for the message.
Goldwater LOST. Remember that. I was 15 that year, and I do. Yet every word he said was true as we can see today. But it didn't help.
Reagan MANAGED his words and message more effectively, and the USSR VAPORIZED.
It is OUR 5 card hand to explain OVER AND OVER, PATIENTLY why the dominant ascendant form of Islam is a malignant POLITICAL imperial absolutism admitting of NO constitutional freedoms.
Untrammeled messages of anger no matter how SATISFYING or factually correct will NOT achieve that end.
Good point about Goldwater! The beginning of our retreat. Johnson was by far the favorite just because of the fresh public sentiment about the Kennedy assassination. This may be partly about anger, but really it's about the survival of my culture for which I have no apologies by the way.....my enemies are the real scumbags.
The conservative mistake was to not rerun Goldwater IMO.
Remember all it takes for evil to triumph is for decent men to do nothing.
Call me old fashioned, but if a lie is repeated often enough to be believed, why aren't we unabashedly shoving the truth in everyone's faces over and over again without buying into the left's bullshit program which they've tailor made for us?
Open your eyes! we are on a long extended losing streak with no end in sight.
Perhaps there is something else which those who will be attending, and who are uncomfortable with the signage ban, can do to compensate for it and thereby satisfy their noble inner drive to have greater political impact.
Might I suggest switching gears a moment and considering the wonderful opportunity that you will have for anti-jihad networking? Aside from the internet, my war has essentially been a lonely war. I have had few opportunities to meet face to face with fellow anti-jihadists and if I could make it to New York I would be very excited about that prospect.
I might even ask myself if toting a sign is really such a state-of-the-art information transmission methodology anyway. If you are like me, you see a sign, you process the information for a brief moment, and then you basically forget about it.
On the other hand, what would be the effect of burning a hundred or even a thousand megabites of your best anti-jihad ammunition - i.e. videos, photos, articles, essays etc. onto half a dozen or more disks and stuffing it into the hands of anyone you meet who seems to not fully appreciate this or that important aspect of the present world war.
Got a copy of Obsession? Burn it on. Got Geert speaking at the Florida Security Council? Ditto. Father Zacharia telling it like it is on Coren? You get my drift? If you thought it was important enough to download and save, like I have thousands, then here's your chance. You know your family and "friends" don't give a fucking shit if you have gathered enough dirt on islam to utterly condemn it twenty seven times over and back. Former Pantygon sleuth Stephen Coughlin master thesis -"To Our Great Detriment"? Burn it on. Work that crowd baby and give 'em something deeper to take home. If we can't burn korans, then burn truth into plastic and give, give it away to anyone who will take it. Fuck copyrights and all that. Share and teach. You will probably never find a more receptive crowd.
Bosch Fawstin's top masterpieces? Burn it. Top anti-jihad blog links. Burn it. The Paris street takeover footage? Burn it.
There is still a few hours :-)
f you will be attending and are understandably a little put out by the no signage request, might I suggest switching gears and considering some other ways you might boost your political impact without straying beyond 'Pam's Parameters'.
If you are like me, your war, up untill now, has been a rather lonely one. Aside from the web, I have had few opportunities to meet my fellow anti-jihadists face to face, and if I could make it to Ground Zero, I would be very excited about that prospect. Networking anyone? I might even ask myself if toting a sign is really such a state-of-the-art information exchange methodology anyway. When I happen to see a sign, I tend to process the presented information for a brief moment or two and then basically just forget it. So why not give people something far richer and more permanent to take away from the event.
What if you took along a half-dozen or more DVD's stuffed with your very best anti-jihad 'amunition' (videos, essays, photos, articles etc.) and placed those into the hands of anyone who seemed to be lacking this or that critical piece of global jihad situational awareness? Got a copy of "Obsession, The Movie" on your hard disk? Burn it onto DVD. Got Fitna? Burn that on too. Geert Wilders speaking at the Florida Security Council. Ditto. Anjem Chowdary admitting that the "life you save" verse really only applies to ... wait for it... MUSLIMS! *dong* *dong* *dong* Come on guys, you know your "friends" and family don't give a flying fucking shit if you happen to have enough digital dirt on this vile insideology to utterly condemn it to the dustbin of history twenty-seven times over. -continued-
-cont- (that first word was "If") GZ may just be your best opportunity yet or even ever to share, share, share and teach. I'm sure nobody will say boo if plastic disks are being passed around the crowd like joints at a folk festival. The enemy uses these comparatively high tech methods to disseminate information all the time don'tcha you know..
Steve Coughlin's master thesis - "To Our Great Detriment"? Yeah baby, burn it on. If we can't burn kornans, then why not at least burn some hard truth into plastic? The children of Beslan telling their story? Definitely burn it. Father Zacharia telling it straight on Coren? Burn it. Links to your favorite counter-jihad sites and blogs? Burrrrrn. Fugggitabout copyrights, this is for educational purposes. Footage of the takeover of Paris streets. Burn it.
If you thought is was important enough to download and save a copy, and I got thousands, then GZ is the perfect "when" and "where" you were probably waiting for. Astoundingly damning clips from MEMRI? Burn 'em. You just know you got 700 or so megabites that you really ought to share with everyone you meet. Your favorite Bosch Fawstin works? Add those too. Pics of girls with their faces burned by evil acid attacks? Hey, this is Islam, kiddies. Let the record show that you know what's what. Favorite war porn inspirationals? Why the fuck not. You've still got a few hours. Don't waste another moment thinking about what you "can't" or "shouldn't" do on this critical day and start the juices flowing in the proper direction of can and should. And if a 'great and terrible fall' should one day come, you are probably going to want to know how to contact many of these superb folks should you or they happen to survive right? (optional but I encourage you to think about it) Contact info? Radio Call Signs? Coordinates for your bunker? This is war my friends. Give it all you got and then some!
Anonymous,
Thank you for the great thought. I do not yet have CD burning tech that I know of. But that is a great and futuristic idea.
By the way, a magazine with the Foreign Agents Registration Act will be being passed out full of anti-Jihad articles. Also, I'll be passing out - no matter what sign - flyers for the Brooklyn Tea Party Sept 19th rally.
All, I am veering towards small sign considering writing on a Tea-Shirt if I can buy one. Thanks so much for the conversation.
Epadimonis, I really liked your argument and so will tone it down. I just hope the stage is full of Sharia talk.
John
Thanks, John
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