'cookieChoices = {};'


The public has recognized that Corporate, Chamber of Commerce Republicans,
and Wall Street Democrats
are the same party, and serve the same constituency,
and it’s NOT THEM.

click.jpg

Sunday, May 14, 2006

Infidel Babe Of The Week


Hirsi Ali.

She is, now, apparently, homeless. And soon, she may be a woman without a country.


Netherlands Integration Minister Rita Verdonk is “looking into” the citizenship status of Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

As Bruce Bawer wrote in an email, first they drove her out of her house, now they’re trying to
drive her out of the country.

On Friday Verdonk said Hirsi Ali had nothing to worry about: Liberals don’t care Hirsi Ali lied to get asylum in 1992.

But today Verdonk’s spokesperson would no longer say that. They’re apparently planning to hold her to a standard that very few African immigrants to the Netherlands would meet, in spite of her accomplishments and courage.

At the Expatica link above there is a poll, asking the question, “Do you think any less of Somali-born MP Ayaan Hirsi Ali for lying about her past to get asylum in the Netherlands?” At this writing the results are:

Yes - (122) - 73% No - (45) - 27%

You know what to do.

But more importantly than a web poll, Rita Verdonk has a web site, and here is its contact page.

Expatica’s editors comment: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: hero or phony?

And there’s a discussion forum.


Hirsi Ali can come stay at my pad, if she would like.

But, let's get serious for a second. It may be that, before we go kick any more Islamofascist ass, we may first have to put together a citizen posse, for a little European vacation of kicking Dhimmi-ass.

WTF is wrong with you people? You are attempting to kick the modern-day equivalent of Thomas Jefferson out of your country? Are you friggin' insane? Have you lost everyone of the marbles you won on the playground, back in the day? Have all the wheels come off the wagon?

Do you need a fucking IV of Viagra?

You friggin' Euro-Dhimmi-fascists make me want to puke. You disgust me. You're like that battle-fatigued soldier in the movie Patton, laying next to the guy who had two legs blown off, while you sit there with your body unblemished, crying, "I can't take it anymore. I can't take it anymore."

You need to act like men. You need to get up and start protecting your women. You need to fight for your land, and your ideals.

YOUR IDEALS!!!

You know, those things written on those old pieces of paper that they keep in the government halls.

For God's sake, you motherfuckers, wake the fuck up.

You're contemplating kicking a woman ( a very noble woman ) out of your country for the crime of trying to help you remember what you stand for.

I don't know how you got so inverted.
Bookmark and Share
posted by Pastorius at permanent link#

55 Comments:

Blogger The Anti-Jihadist said...

For Europe, appeasement is the supreme ideal.

Sunday, May 14, 2006 10:51:00 am  
Blogger Gurdjieff said...

She is betrayed by the public left broadcasting organisation
http://eurabia.blogse.nl/log/ayaan-and-an-attempt-to-character-assassination.html

Sunday, May 14, 2006 11:23:00 am  
Anonymous alison said...

Bollocks Anti-Jihadist - how dit go with South Park?

Norways ministers have recommended her for the Nobel Peace Prize this year and Demarks PM is one of her biggest fans. Verdonk carries the hard line on asylum and immigration and is in line as Presidential candidate, rock & hard place. But no more so than Condi faced over those cartoons eh.

Obviously its hugley important to highlight and support Hirsi but she has plenty of high level European support also much as youd like to think she doesnt.

Sunday, May 14, 2006 1:23:00 pm  
Anonymous rambler body work said...

Nicely said Pastorius! My reaction exactly.

After all that has gone on, I guess we are really going to need another 911 to get people to understand. Except I think it will be multiple 911's and it will be the real beginning of WW3.

Sunday, May 14, 2006 3:02:00 pm  
Blogger Pastorius said...

Alison,
I'm glad to hear that Hirsi Ali has a lot of support, but that support didn't help her much when she got evicted.

You're correct that America has its problems with appeasement as well. Thanks for pointing that out.

We do get too strident against Europeans here sometimes. I hope that you noted that I used qualifier words, like "Euro-Dhimmis", instead of just criticizing Europeans in general.

Oh yes, and just for the sake of truth, Condi has nothing to do with what gets censored and what doesn't in America.

:)

Sunday, May 14, 2006 3:08:00 pm  
Blogger Pastorius said...

Rambler,
You're thinking the same thing I am thinking.

I am afraid for us.

Sunday, May 14, 2006 3:09:00 pm  
Anonymous rambler body work (RBW) said...

P,
I just watched "Meet the Press". A guy that I never liked from the Clinton days because of his over the top approach was Newt Gingrich.

However, I have always liked his "thinking outside the box" approach. In recent years, I really began to like him again. He is much more bipartisan and does not speak like a politician. And he is willing (pretty much) to criticize his own party members. He understands the need for alternative energy, cutting spending and I think he will do what needs to be done in getting Iraq to work.

It's just nice to hear some new, fresh ideas for a change.

Sunday, May 14, 2006 4:56:00 pm  
Anonymous alison said...

Yes I guess i took it as one in the same Pastorius...The amount of time i spend in Europe ive yet to come across anyone who doesnt feel the same way we all do about islamofascism and then again ive met plenty of moonbats also. Weve our fair share as have you guys. I was referring to Condis remarks on the cartoons in general which must have a bearing on what TV stations decide to put out or not. The decision not to show Mo in South Park was a shocker coming from the US.

I dont think in the run up to elections with Verdonk towing the hard line on asylum and immigration in Holland (and good for her) that re-emphasising the dodgy manner in which Ali got her right to stay was altogether her best move to date. Im a huge fan of hers but equally think it is important to see this in some kind of context. Verdonk is in the running for the 07 elections and has stressed her hard line. If she chose to ignore Alis previous remarks to her and public statements then all well and good but back then i expect it wasnt a focus. But if the light is shone on her in election run up by Alis documentary then Verdonk has to react as will invariably all the posturing right wingers. Rock and hard place.

Sunday, May 14, 2006 5:39:00 pm  
Anonymous alison said...

'If she chose to ignore Alis previous remarks to her and public statements'

that should read 'initially ignore' referring to when she first spoke about her asylum application.

Sunday, May 14, 2006 5:41:00 pm  
Blogger Pastorius said...

Alison,
Ah yes, Condi's remarks. You're right. I forgot about that.

That was shameful.

I knew there was a reason I had begun to distrust her, and yet I forgot the reason.

About South Park. That was, of course, Comedy Central's decision.

There were very few American media outlets that did choose to show the cartoons.

On the other hand, we have chosen to initiate war against two Islamic nations, and we are in the middle of beginning to initiate war against a third.

I wonder if the choice to inhibit the whole cartoon thing was because we have bigger fish to fry.

Sunday, May 14, 2006 6:25:00 pm  
Blogger Pastorius said...

Alison,
By the way, I'm glad you know a lot of Europeans who are also angry about Islamofascism. I suspected that there were alot. It's the governments and media outlets of Europe which I have trouble with.

Sunday, May 14, 2006 6:26:00 pm  
Blogger D.C. said...

Thanks for that post Pastorius.

Something is wrong in that country. This is a ridiculous situation, obviously politically motivated, who is really behind all this?

Verdonk seems a bit on the border of fascism as well, working in the correction system in leadership positions, can do that to people.

...But she repeated she would have deported Hirsi Ali if she had been the minister back in 1992. "I don't like lies," Verdonk

She does not, hey? I love when politicians say stuff like that.

Sunday, May 14, 2006 6:52:00 pm  
Anonymous alison said...

I respect that Pastorius, but I do often come away from the blogosphere with this unsettling feeling that it isnt so much to support Europe as assume much is indicative of our imminent 'demise'! Im not one those who subscribes to the latter. Can you tell? (lol).

Sunday, May 14, 2006 7:31:00 pm  
Blogger Epaminondas said...

She doesn't belong there anyway...let her come here and wake the people up.

Maybe she can lecture the Taliban at Yale

Sunday, May 14, 2006 10:26:00 pm  
Blogger Pastorius said...

Alison,

I will be very honest with you. I am not, and never have been worried about the demise of Europe. Read my 26 month archive over at my blog CUANAS.

What you will find I have been saying for the past years is that it is not a question of whether Europe will disappear, because she will not. The question is whether Europe will have to, once again, fall into fascism in order to right its situation.

In my opinion, we are likely past the point where Europe will have a choice. I think we passed the point of no return in the last few months when Europe surrendered twice to the Islamofascists; first in the case of the November riots, second in the face of the cartoon Jihad.

You are correct that Denmark did not cave, but the rest of Europe did. The EU has even threatened, and maybe even passed legislation against criticism of religion.

You know these things.

I do not celebrate any of this. In my disgust with the situation, it may sound like I am gloomy about the possibility of a European future. That, as I said, isn't the case. My concern is for Western Civilization.

Will we recognize ourselves when we are finished doing what we are going to need to do to win.

Sunday, May 14, 2006 11:12:00 pm  
Blogger Pastorius said...

By the way, similarly, America, in my opinion, has very likely passed a point of no return with respect to Iran. It is beginning to look as if we will never take care of Iran.

The consequece, I believe, is that someone, us, you, or Israel, will get hit with nuclear weapons.

The result will be millions, perhaps, hundreds of millions dead.

If you read IBA and CUANAS, I think you will see this concern hinted at regularly.

Please note that quite a few of our bloggers are Europeans. J, Jonz, DS, Von Schlichtningen, Someguy, and Blueslord, are all Europeans.

I want more and more European contributors. So, if you would like to contribute, please let me know.

Sunday, May 14, 2006 11:17:00 pm  
Anonymous rambler body work said...

Epa said:
"She doesn't belong there anyway...let her come here and wake the people up. Maybe she can lecture the Taliban at Yale"

I would welcome her here in the US. We desperately need her to force the appeasers to open their eyes.

Sunday, May 14, 2006 11:38:00 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Read the Dutch blog about Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

There is also English section!

http://ayaanhirsiali.web-log.nl

Monday, May 15, 2006 1:19:00 am  
Blogger Pastorius said...

Anonymous,
Thanks for clueing us in.

Monday, May 15, 2006 2:50:00 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about!!!
First of all Rita Verdonk is not us, the people of the Netherlands. Second, the whole thing about AHA is about giving her the same treatment as other refugees are given, and with which a lot of us don't agree. But we also can't agree with giving AHA a special treatment.
Also AHA is not always what she seems, since she's hurting a lot of Moslimwomen with her ideas.I quess she'll be more then welcome in the States and kick Condaleeza Rices ass and become the righthand of Mr Bush.

Monday, May 15, 2006 11:46:00 am  
Blogger Pastorius said...

(Sigh - ok, it's probably a language barrier, have patience)

Anonymous,

I didn't direct this post at all Dutchpeople.

It is directed at those who are "Euro-Dhimmi-Fascists".

Does that include you?

When you look at Hirsi Ali, do you consider her a bad human being who needs to be deported, or do you see someone who is a productive member of the Dutch Parliament?

If you are among those who want to see her deported, though she has contributed to your society, then you are a "Euro-Dhimmi-Fascist"

Which side are you on?

Monday, May 15, 2006 12:10:00 pm  
Anonymous Jack Haemon said...

I'd like to start of by saying where you get the nerve to go around callin people fascist.
First of all, Ayaan, as a MP of my home country, has lied about so many things it is inevitable that people are getting fed up with her, especially since now she seems to have taken the easy way and is going to leave our country. She lied about her background, her age, where she came from, changed her name, just to gget a passport as an economic fugitive, not the war-victimised woman she has led people to believe she is.
Her views on Islam are based on a small part of that religion, her own native Somali culture. Women circumcision is part of that culture, but as a whole the Islam does NOT support that at all. Ayaan has been fighting against her own Somali culture, instead of the complete Islam, but since Islam is a hot topic these days shes been using a certain vocabulary that hits a sensitive spot and getting lots of attention (and death threats) as a result. With her polarising policy she has been forcing our citizens to pay millions on security, with her extreme views on Islam she got one of our most prominent filmmakers ever killed, with her lies she got people to believe that she is a Somali civil-war victim when in fact she fled Somalia and was living in safety in relative wealth in Kenia, along with her family. There are no words for the way she is betraying the country that supported her, fed her, nourished her and took her in as one of her own.

Lets see how long it will take her to fuck things up in the US, lying about everything and setting people up against eachother. Have fun with Ayaan.

Monday, May 15, 2006 2:53:00 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

@Jack Haemon:

You’re analysis of Ayaan seems a bit harsh! Ok, she supposedly lied about the details of her asylum application by claiming that she had a forced arranged marriage by her father. But what strikes me as odd is how this supposed ‘willing’ bride chose to run at the first opportunity. Correct me if I am wrong, but runaway ’willing’ brides aren’t usually common.

As for Ayaan offending Muslim women…it is her right to express objections to Islam’s treatment of women. The worst type of slave is not the one physically shackled rather it is the one chained mentally. That Islam is oppressive to women is common knowledge…all you need to is read the Quran…so I will not go down that line here.

However, I will dissect your comment that “ Ayaan has been fighting against her own Somali culture, instead of the complete Islam”. This I exposes your ignorance of Islam, which no doubt I attribute to so-called “liberal Muslims”. Somalis are nearly 100% Muslim/Sunni of the Shafi school of thought. Female circumcision is widely practiced there, as it was in the time of Mohammed by the Arabs. Female circumcision is common in several parts of Africa, notably Egypt, Sudan, Somalia and Ethiopia. It is also known in parts of Arabia and in Malaysia and Indonesia. The fact that circumcision is not as widely practiced in the Arab countries now has nothing to do with Islam…in fact the opposite; it was outlawed by the socialist dictatorships that govern the region.

There are numerous Hadiths(sayings) of Mohamed where he speaks of female circumcision, e.g: when he instructed a lady named Umm Attia who performed these operations saying, "Do not overstrain; that is more pleasant for the woman and more preferable to her husband". The removal of the clitoris was a common practice by the Arabs and it was done to reduce the desires of women so that they would be compelled to have sex before marriage, thus dishonouring their family name.

And before you dismiss me as a mere western leftist with no authority on Islam…I am a Somali woman who knows exactly what she speaks of.

Yasmin

Monday, May 15, 2006 4:10:00 pm  
Anonymous jack said...

"With her polarising policy she has been forcing our citizens to pay millions on security, with her extreme views on Islam she got one of our most prominent filmmakers ever killed."

Typical ... blame the woman ... not the ones trying to kill her!

Monday, May 15, 2006 4:19:00 pm  
Blogger Pablo said...

Jack, I attended a talk with AHA last week at Harvard and I heard no hate from her. But ethere were some muslims in attendance who clearly despised her.

The hate is a product of the haters, not of the hated. Muslims hate apostates, and the Sharia penalty is death. That is a fact that AHA need not mention for us to know it's true.

Blame the haters, not what they hate.

Monday, May 15, 2006 4:28:00 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ayan Hirsi Ali's departure is just another sad reminder of Europe's disgrace. We Americans will benefit from the great contributions of women like her, just as we benefit from the energy, intelligence, and courage of the best Europeans, who still emigrate to America today, just as they have for centuries.

It's sad to see Europe on the way to another dark age. France, Germany, and the Netherlands have no will to fight for their civilization. Let us hope for the sake of humanity that the countries of central and eastern europe, having just overthrown the communist yoke, will fight like hell against the islamic theocrats.

Poland, the Baltics, Hungary, the Czechs, and the Danes are the countries that can save europe. Is there any chance of gratitude from the useless socialist prats of France when their cowardly arses are saved yet again, by better people than themselves?

Monday, May 15, 2006 4:32:00 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Jack,

You are a damned fool. People like you are why Theo ended up with a knife in his chest. That filthy goddamned thug who murdered him knew that the result of his crime would be hoards of stupid, cowardly dhimmis demanding that the Netherlands capitulate to the demands of the islamofascists. You make me sick.

Monday, May 15, 2006 4:41:00 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

As I said earlier; she after Condoleeza Rices job! Just wait and see. Thank God I'm not an American citizan.

Monday, May 15, 2006 4:54:00 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Although her cause is a just one, I can be argued that the battle she is fightnig should not be carried out in the dutch parliament, but on the streets.
The fact that she faces extradition is her own fault (lying is not a nice thing to do when applying for a Visa. try to do that next time you (as a foreigner) go to the US and find out what happens). The current minister of immigration has chosen to have a strict interpretation of the law and seems to leave no way other then removal of her passport.

Monday, May 15, 2006 5:07:00 pm  
Anonymous Jack Haemon said...

You make me sick by calling me a fool and staying anonymous as you are. I am not a muslim, I am not American and I am certainly not responsible for Theo van Gogh getting killed. Where do you get the arrogance to say the things you say? I dont blame the women (whatever gave you that idea), I am all for freedom of speech but I am against freedom of offending other people and getting others killes for that. Ayaan wrote the Submission script, Theo van Gogh was merely contracted to produce the work, yet he ends up getting ritualllu slaughtered in the streets of Amsterdam while Ayaan, after suckin up millions worth of taxmoney and LYING about practically everything, she moves to the US to go lick George Bush's ass clean with her lying tongue.

Monday, May 15, 2006 5:22:00 pm  
Blogger Pastorius said...

Hey Jack,

Bend over. I'm coming to get you, you little pussy.

I didn't call the Dutch people "fascist." I called Dhimmi's like you fascist. You fucking fascist.

Fuck you, you make me sick. Islam will be good for you. Have you bought yourself a burqa yet, you pussy?

Monday, May 15, 2006 5:44:00 pm  
Blogger Pastorius said...

Since I wrote my first response to Jack, I have read a few of the other responses to him. They are rational refutations of his idiocy. I particularly like Yasmin's comment.

However, I must say, that a man like Jack does not, in my opinion, deserve a rational response. He deserves a burqa. He deserves to live like the people whose lives he would throw away.

I don't often wish justice on people, but in the two years I have been blogging I have rarely seen a idiot of the magnitude displayed by Jack.

Monday, May 15, 2006 5:52:00 pm  
Blogger Pastorius said...

Having read more, now I find that Jack Haemon is an American. God, what a shame on us.

Monday, May 15, 2006 5:53:00 pm  
Blogger Pastorius said...

Yasmin,

Would you like to become a regular contributor to Infidel Bloggers Alliance. We need you.

Monday, May 15, 2006 7:27:00 pm  
Blogger Pastorius said...

Yasmin,
If you would like to contribute, just leave me an email address, and I will send you an invitation email. Or, click on the Envelope link on the side of our blog here, and leave us an email there.

Monday, May 15, 2006 7:29:00 pm  
Blogger Rune said...

Lying on her visa application is of course wrong and I wish Holland all the best with their new measures to tighten the immigration policies, it can be done – Denmark has cut immigration by 3/4 or more with similar initiatives. However if I’m not mistaken, the information regarding Ayaan’s visa application, has been in the public since 2002 and the way it now suddenly surfaces and is made out to be a big thing smacks of ulterior motives and a smear campaign. But more to the point, once she was threatened by fascist and murderers, there just was no way back - all of The Netherlands should have stood up for her, despite whatever may have come before. Anything else would have (and is) a total disgrace (and eternal shame be on those in her building who tried to have her evicted – When first they came for the Jews I did not speak out because I was not a Jew...), as well as a tacit surrender to the murderers who now see their murdering ways pay off. Pay the Dane-geld once, and you never rid of the Dane. And I should know, being a Dane.

Jack, the idea that you blame “the woman” comes from your own post. Theo van Gogh knew of the threat to himself when producing the film, but sadly miscalculated the immediate danger. She did not “get him killed”. His murder is the work of his killers only and no blame what so ever can be placed with Ayaan or anyone else. Lets not sully Theo van Gogh’s memory by insinuating he was not an adult man able to make adult decisions. Likewise writing Ayaan “sucks up millions worth of tax money” is putting all the blame in all the wrong places. I’m quite certain that, given a choice, Ayaan would prefer not to have to live with constant bodyguards or indeed go into hiding – I’m sure that sort of thing gets real old real fast. It’s not Ayaan sucking up the millions, it’s the fascist Islamists threatening her that are sucking up the millions. Millions well spend, if they help to foil the plans of fascists. I hope Holland will continue to provide her with the needed bodyguards when she moves to the US.

I’m certain that there is another (and better) Islam than what those fascists whom killed Theo van Gogh and continue to threaten Ayaan, are the proponents of. However I’m also certain that that fascist version of Islam must be given absolutely no quarter and excuses like those from Jack only make the transition away from fundamentalist Islam that much harder and protracted to the worse for us all, but worse for regular Muslims in particular. Accommodations and weakness always strengthen fascists ideologies. If Ayaan is a polarising character, it is because things needs polarisation and sometimes the truth is the most unwanted and polarising thing of all.


Also lets see if we can not put this off as a Eurabia thing, or whatever some guys are always harping on about. As far as I know Europe has heaved public and private prices and recognitions on Ayaan far in excess of anything done by Americans. Two times she’s been formally invited by the Danish government to speak in Denmark, and been interviewed on television and the movie Submission showed more than a few times by the largest TV channel. How many times has Submission been shown on a large US TV channel? Just last year, she received the Freedom Price from our PM ”for her work to further freedom of speech and the rights of women", who personally delivered it to her. – And Ayaan repaid by leaps and bounds by being the perhaps most outspoken and trustworthy person Denmark had during the whole Cartoon nonsense. The US and Europe is in this mess together, staying together will afford us the least harm.

Monday, May 15, 2006 8:53:00 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hi, Pastorius...I've just sent you an email requesting membership.

@Jack Haemon,

Indeed Ayaan did write submission, but aren’t you taking away due credit from Theo Van Gogh by referring to his directing as mere "contract work"? Van Gogh received numerous death threats before he was finally murdered but he refused to have these threats diminish his quality of life. He was either very brave or did not comprehend the possibility that such threats could be carried out on Dutch soil. Ayaan did warn him to take the security arrangements seriously and I doubt there’s anyone who grieves for her friend more than she.

Jack, no one should die for offending…regardless of the situation. If we murder all those that offend us what sort society will we have? Muslims are no exception to this rule, and if they don‘t like it then they should migrate to Muslim lands. I know Ayaan’s case is probably abstract to you, but it isn’t to me. If my relatives or community were to find out about my convictions I would no doubt be showered with death threats…and would probably require security. No doubt , if I were left to your mercy you’d rather let me die than “suckin up millions worth of tax money”, as you put it.

Yasmin

Monday, May 15, 2006 9:20:00 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

@Rune, You've covered the topic extensively...I saw your post after I submitted mine...Had I read it beforem I wouldn't have bothered.

Yasmin

Monday, May 15, 2006 10:04:00 pm  
Blogger Rune said...

@Yasmin: Well, I'm glad you didn't then, since I enjoy reading your posts.

Btw. here's Ayaan's email in case anyone should feel like sending her some happy words: Ayaanhirsiali@tweedekamer.nl . It's probably filled to the brim and she'll never have the time to read but a fraction of the emails, but what the heck - it can't hurt.

Goodnight all.

Monday, May 15, 2006 10:15:00 pm  
Anonymous Barbara Schuddeboom said...

In rather a hurry I read most of the comments on what is happening to Ayaan Hirsi Magan, that is her real name after the lies about her identity came out last week. I am am now convinced that most of you people don't know anything about the situation in which all is "embedded" over here, the Netherlands.

It's the conservatives (you call them liberals but conservative they are) that now are dropping their MP, mrs. Magan. They "have" to do it because they are in the government responsible for the most strict immigration and asylum policy ever. They are shooting in their own foot you might say.

Most of the Dutch lefties (you call them liberals) don't think mrs. Magan should be turned to the illegal status considering the harshness of the current policy despicable.

I think mrs Magan knew very well what she was doing all the time. My opinion is that she is a career woman getting her position and profiting from the worldwide hate against Muslims after 9/11. Before that she herself was a member of the Muslem Brotherhood, a very conservative Muslima!

Tuesday, May 16, 2006 7:41:00 am  
Blogger Pastorius said...

Barbara,
I would imagine we do make mistakes here. However, I think you are foolish to believe that Hirsi Ali is simply a careerist.

How would you like to have had someone forcibly lop off your clitoris when you were a little girl?

Tuesday, May 16, 2006 8:47:00 pm  
Anonymous Barbara Schuddeboom said...

OK. She is coming to your country. You will see.

Furthermore, I don't like the debating trick you are using. Why should it be necessary to have had a circumcision myself to have an opinion about it, in fact to reject it? There are many ways to obtain knowledge, you know.

And finally: you don't know what my experiences in life are on which my opinions are based.

Right now I am watching the debating in parliament about the nationality of mrs Magan. I am sorry to see that she is getting so much attention where ordinary refugees are ignored. Some people are more equal than others.

Wednesday, May 17, 2006 12:14:00 am  
Blogger Pastorius said...

Barbara,

She RISKED HER LIFE to protect your Freedom.

YOu are correct in saying my debating tactic is a bit unfair, but the point I am making is that she lived through the reality of Islam, and she is angry about it, and justifiably so.

Meanwhile, you are debating technicalities.

You are debating technicalities with regards to a woman who is a giant of Western Civlization.

You remind me of the Roman Centurions who played lots for the clothes of Christ.

It really is pathetic.

What is wrong with you that you can't see what you are doing? You seem like an intelligent woman.

Wednesday, May 17, 2006 10:46:00 am  
Anonymous Barbara Schuddeboom said...

@ Pastorius

I am a teacher Mathematics. So I have a lot of foreign children in my classes.

I really can't see what mrs Magan contributed to emancipate this group. She just worked with the conservatives - Magan is a MP for the VVD - to make the political conditions harsh, almost unbearable. By making the film Submission, which I find rather boring, she didn't reach out or stimulated discussions, but she just offended. It didn't help me and my collegues much!!!

And now the changed rules - Rijkswet ter verkrijging van het Nederlandschap - to which she and her rightwing party contributed turn against herself. It is ironic but true.

Your argument that she risked her life to give me freedom is really outrageous. In a way it is chantage.
In this country we have a lot of very, mostly tiny, but still very fundamentalist Christian groups. Like in the US.
I know a lot of people that are suffering from a childhood with an upbringing within those extreme groups too.

Within every religion there are extremes and fundis.

What I would like to know about you is why you think me and others are not understanding? Do you think you know the ultimate truth? Are you a prophet? Or a guru perhaps?

Wednesday, May 17, 2006 11:58:00 am  
Blogger Pastorius said...

You know a lot of people who are brought up in fundamentalist Christian households who are suffering too?

Are they suffering from genital mutilation? Are they suffering from honor killings? Are they suffering under the reality that spousal abuse is sanctioned by Holy Scriptures? Are they suffering from having to wear burqas?

Barbara, there is no comparison between fundamentalist Islam and fundamentalist Christianity. One is a nuisance and one is organized enslavement of women.

If a woman does not have choice in whether to go to school, in who to marry, in whether to drive, in what she wears, in whether to divorce, then that woman is a slave.

This is not true for all Muslim women, but it is true for many. In fact, it is true for almost every single woman in Saudi Arabia. It's the law of the land there. Similarly, in Somalia, it is true for a great deal of women.

When I say that Hirsi Ali is risking her life to protect your freedom what I mean is she is risking her life to try to make Dutch society aware of the reality of Islamofascism, which she has experienced firsthand in her native country.

This may not seem like it is a danger to Dutch society, but it is. And, here is why:

Dutch people are not reproducing at replacement rates. The Dutch socialist system needs an ever-expanding population to continue to support welfare, and retirement, and medical benefits.

Therefore, the Dutch system needs immigrants. Your immigrants tend to be from Islamic countries. The immigrants reproduce at MORE than replacement rates.

Now, I don't know the statistics for Holland, but I do know that within forty years, France will be majority Islamic, unless something completely unforeseen intervenes to change current population trends.

Assimilation is not working. In my opinion, there are multiple reasons for why it is not working. One is that the flood of immigrants allows for insularity. Another is because Islam is a religion which does not respect separation of church and state. Therefore, many Muslims live in an Islamic world, no matter what the laws are of the land in which they live.

Now, you might think this is a racist thing to say (although Islam is not a race), so I would ask you to, once again, think of Saudi Arabia. In Saudi Arabia, Sharia Law is literally the Constitution of the land. In Nigeria, Sharia reigns also. In Somalia, it does in many areas. In the Sudan Sharia reigns. In the Palestinian territories, under Hamas, Sharia reigns. In Iran, there is a Constitution and a Democracy, but candidates are hand-picked by Clergy, therefore, in Iran, Sharia Law has enormous influence.

Now, why don't you tell me where I am wrong here.

By the way, you said Hirsi Ali is a careerist. Could you support that please? Please, for instance, leave me a link about her membership in the Muslim Brotherhood. I have never heard any such thing about her in the past. What you say is a new one on me.

Wednesday, May 17, 2006 2:59:00 pm  
Anonymous Barbara Schuddeboom said...

@ Pastorius (which is the name of a member of Weather Report)
You tell me two things:
1. That a lot of suffering of women is typically related to the Islam.
2. That is Islam is going to take over power in the world.

Ad 1: I am an old feminist. I struggled a lot to get things right for me and my sisters. When I see what my mother and further back had to suffer from, even though they were living in so called Western societies, I pity them. And even now machism and paternalism isn't gone. My opinion is that suddenly some males are interested in female emancipation just to beat/hurt Islamic men. I find that very irritating. Not so long ago these men were obstructing my emancipation. I find that hypocrite.

Ad 2: You say that because of the replacement rate Islam is taking over. Well, so be it. I don't want to fight that left alone that there would be a possibility to do it. The R.K. Church for instance had the dogma of not using birth control just to keep up numbers of Catholics. I find that sick. It makes women breeding machines. So, if the time has come that because of numbers Islam will grow, well once again, so be it. You can't bring fear in my heart.

However, I don't think that will happen. Or rather development and education will lead to something else. I studied a bit the processes going on in Africa. During a period of 5 years I was married to a Togolese asylumseeker, you know. He was a liberal Muslem. When you read books of Maya Angelou, Buchi Emecheta, Nadine Gordimer, even of my niece Barbara Trapido, you will see that by giving women a higher level of education, her giving birth will get to a higher age and at the same time the number of children goes down. This is happening in countries in Africa where development of society is going up. So, if this is the case you only have to educate little girls and give them a lot of opportunities to study longer and then this doom scenario of yours wil fade away....

Goodbye.

Wednesday, May 17, 2006 6:27:00 pm  
Anonymous Barbara Schuddeboom said...

P.S.: I am originally a mix of a Dutch Jew and a Christian German.

Goodbye again...

Wednesday, May 17, 2006 6:33:00 pm  
Anonymous Barbara Schuddeboom said...

1.Here is a link to her sympathising with the Muslim Brotherhood.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hirsi_Ali

2. She told it in the VPRO-program of Zomergasten in 2004 where she showed her small film Submission:
http://www.vpro.nl/programma/zomergasten/afleveringen/17869746/items/18934598/

3. The same thing she said in the NYT: "‘’We all wanted to be martyrs,’’ Hirsi Ali says, ‘’or I did, because we saw what the Iraqi army was doing to the Iranians."

The event of 9/11 produced the shock of the big change. She saw the light as we say in Holland!!!

Wednesday, May 17, 2006 6:47:00 pm  
Anonymous Barbara Schuddeboom said...

Here is the link to the NYT-article:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/03/magazine/03ALI.html?pagewanted=3&ei=5090&en=7272f7f8332d2c15&ex=1270267200&partner=rssuserland

Wednesday, May 17, 2006 7:00:00 pm  
Blogger Pastorius said...

Barbara,
Who asked your heritage?

Yes, the name is taken from the Weather Report bass player, my favorite musician.

You and I are so far apart in our understanding of the world that debate is not going to help. To me, it is obvious that women in the West have been oppressed, but the oppression of lack of birth control, and uneven wages, and of Barbie dolls, and princess stories, is nothing compared to what goes on in places like Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Nigeria.

I don't understand how you, as a person of conscience, can even compare the two.

In my opinion, you have a severe case of moral conflation.

To say that you don't mind that Islam takes over and brings with it the practices of the aforementioned countries, because education will bring the women into the modern world seems profoundly ignorant to me.

Civilizations can be measured by the way they treat women. Because men are bigger and stronger, there never has been a society which treats women competely equally, and there never will be. Women also have the disadvantage that many of them want to have babies and stay home and take care of them. This causes women to become dependant on men.

I don't think you can take that out of all women through education. Nor do I think it is in the best interest of society to try to hammer that out of women's nature.

Anyway, I understand where you are coming from now.

Oh, and by the way, the fact that Hirsi Ali may have had different opinions vis a vis Islam prior to 9/11 doesn't mean that she is a political manipulator and opportunist. Many people had their worldviews instantaneously changed on 9/11. I did, for instance. I am a lifelong liberal. Never voted for a Republican until I voted for George Bush in the 2004 election. And the reason my worldview changed so dramatically is because I realized that the proclamations of countries like Iran saying they want to kill the Infidel and destroy the US, were not just bluster. These people will do anything they can to kill as many of us as possible.

That is what 9/11 taught me.

What did it teach you?

Thursday, May 18, 2006 8:45:00 pm  
Anonymous Barbara Schuddeboom said...

@ Pastorious
1. You said: “I don't understand how you, as a person of conscience, can even compare the two. In my opinion, you have a severe case of moral conflation.”

What makes you think you may diagnose me like that? Are you a shrink? And even then..
Your argument that I shouldn’t compare suffering of women all over the world is false because I didn’t. It is you doing that! And for your information: I never would make an hierarchy in suffering. Why? Because my parents as survivors of the WOII were doing that to each other all the time. My sister and I learned from that. Suffering is suffering. My father lost his Jewish family because of the murderous naziregime. My mother was forced in slave labour by the same regime and got bombed by the Allied Forces. Both suffered and were emotionally hurt.

2. You say I am ignorant mentioning education as a tool to bring about better conditions for women.
Why? You don’t give an argument for that..

3. You say: “ Civilizations can be measured by the way they treat women.” You’re right. I even would stretch that to other groups like elderly, mental/physical ill people and so on. In that way every society has its own responsability, even yours. For instance: when I hear that there are groups and movements like pro-life that want to skip the right for abortion in the US and even doctors are being shot, I think there is a lot to be gained within your own country. It was Bush’ his first act deminishing the aid funds to developing countries in order to give birth control posibilities. A kind of “thank you” to his conservative electorate and financial promotors just after his inauguration in january 2001. Not a very emancipatory thing to do, don't you think?

4. You say that you can’t take depency on man out of women’s nature. I don’t agree because that is not a natural thing. It is not in female genes to be dependant. It is a cultural thingie...so it might change by changing conditions like upbringing, education and so on.

5. You say: “ And the reason my worldview changed so dramatically is because I realized that the proclamations of countries like Iran saying they want to kill the Infidel and destroy the US, were not just bluster.”
I am sorry to read that. It is an disproportional change of view, imo. How is it possible that a big world power like the US can be provoked by such small countries like Iran, Iraq or other third world states. It is typical for the Bush doctrine of pre-emptiveness of strikes. I do not agree with that. The US now, and the Coalition of the willing, have another Vietnam-like war at their hands in Iraq. Not in my name!

6. You say: “ These people will do anything they can to kill as many of us as possible.”
On my bookshelf I have the dvd “Bowling for Columbine”, a docu by Michael Moore as you might well know. I think it would be an act of mental hygiene to introspect as a American citizen and realize that there is even more agression and violence within your society than is coming from abroad. I know by creating an outside enemy you may give a blind eye to the one within.

7. You asked: “What did it (9/11) teach you?”
The blunt blow of 9/11 didn’t learn me anything but the reactions afterwards a lot. The best it is put to words by the Tsjech philosopher Slavoj Zizek in his booklet “Welcome to the desert of the real!; five essays on September 11 and related dates”.

Of course 9/11 shook me emotionally and it made me paint a lot of war images rooted in my childhood.

Yesterday evening we had rehearsals with my Yiddish choir. My solo is a song on the words of a poem by Abraham Reisen [b]Ikh un di velt[/b]. It is the story of my life. I give you the words and translation:

[i]Ven di gantse velt volt layden,
Mir aleyn zol gut zayn bloyz,
Volt ikh dan di velt, di gantse,
Ayngeladn in mayn hoyz.
Ikh volt treystn zi un tsertlen,
Un gezogt: Nit zorg zikh velt.
Biz zi volt tsu zikh gekumen.
Un zikh oyf di fis geshtelt.

Ven di velt geven volt gliklekh,
Ikh aleyn bloyz ful mit leyd,
Volt ikh dan tsu ir gekumen
Un gefodert: Gib mir freyd!
Ober az mir layden beyde,
I di velt, i ikh aleyn,
Hot di velt nit vu tsu kumen
Un ikh hob nit vu tsu geyn.[/i]

(If the whole world were suffering and things were good only for me, I would invite the whole world to my house. I would comfort and caress it, and say: Don’t worry, world! Till it recovered and got back on its feet. If the world were happy and only I were suffering, I would go to it and demand: Give me happiness! But since both of us are suffering, the world and I, the world has no one to go to and neither I.)

I wish mrs Magan and everybody else all the best. Same to you.




Friday, May 19, 2006 11:12:00 am  
Anonymous Barbara Schuddeboom said...

@ Pastorious
1. You said: “I don't understand how you, as a person of conscience, can even compare the two. In my opinion, you have a severe case of moral conflation.”

What makes you think you may diagnose me like that? Are you a shrink? And even then..
Your argument that I shouldn’t compare suffering of women all over the world is false because I didn’t. It is you doing that! And for your information: I never would make an hierarchy in suffering. Why? Because my parents as survivors of the WOII were doing that to each other all the time. My sister and I learned from that. Suffering is suffering. My father lost his Jewish family because of the murderous naziregime. My mother was forced in slave labour by the same regime and got bombed by the Allied Forces. Both suffered and were emotionally hurt.

2. You say I am ignorant mentioning education as a tool to bring about better conditions for women.
Why? You don’t give an argument for that..

3. You say: “ Civilizations can be measured by the way they treat women.” You’re right. I even would stretch that to other groups like elderly, mental/physical ill people and so on. In that way every society has its own responsability, even yours. For instance: when I hear that there are groups and movements like pro-life that want to skip the right for abortion in the US and even doctors are being shot, I think there is a lot to be gained within your own country. It was Bush’ his first act deminishing the aid funds to developing countries in order to give birth control posibilities. A kind of “thank you” to his conservative electorate and financial promotors just after his inauguration in january 2001.

4. You say that you can’t take depency on man out of women’s nature. I don’t agree because that is not a natural thing. It is not in female genes to be dependant. It is a cultural thingie...so it might change by changing conditions like upbringing, education and so on.

5. You say: “ And the reason my worldview changed so dramatically is because I realized that the proclamations of countries like Iran saying they want to kill the Infidel and destroy the US, were not just bluster.”
I am sorry to read that. It is an disproportional change of view, imo. How is it possible that a big world power like the US can be provoked by such small countries like Iran, Iraq or other third world states. It is typical for the Bush doctrine of pre-emptiveness of strikes. I do not agree with that. The US now, and the Coalition of the willing, have another Vietnam-like war at their hands in Iraq. Not in my name!

6. You say: “ These people will do anything they can to kill as many of us as possible.”
On my bookshelf I have the dvd “Bowling for Columbine”, a docu by Michael Moore as you might well know. I think it would be an act of mental hygiene to introspect as a American citizen and realize that there is even more agression and violence within your society than is coming from abroad. I know by creating an outside enemy you may give a blind eye to the one within.

7. You asked: “What did it (9/11) teach you?”
The blunt blow of 9/11 didn’t learn me anything but the reactions afterwards a lot. The best it is put to words by the Tsjech philosopher Slavoj Zizek in his booklet “Welcome to the desert of the real!; five essays on September 11 and related dates”.

Of course 9/11 shook me emotionally and it made me paint a lot of war images rooted in my childhood.

Yesterday evening we had rehearsals with my Yiddish choir. My solo is a song on the words of a poem by Abraham Reisen “Ikh un di velt”. It is the story of my life. I give you the words and translation:

Ven di gantse velt volt layden,
Mir aleyn zol gut zayn bloyz,
Volt ikh dan di velt, di gantse,
Ayngeladn in mayn hoyz.
Ikh volt treystn zi un tsertlen,
Un gezogt: Nit zorg zikh velt.
Biz zi volt tsu zikh gekumen.
Un zikh oyf di fis geshtelt.

Ven di velt geven volt gliklekh,
Ikh aleyn bloyz ful mit leyd,
Volt ikh dan tsu ir gekumen
Un gefodert: Gib mir freyd!
Ober az mir layden beyde,
I di velt, i ikh aleyn,
Hot di velt nit vu tsu kumen
Un ikh hob nit vu tsu geyn.

(If the whole world were suffering and things were good only for me, I would invite the whole world to my house. I would comfort and caress it, and say: Don’t worry, world! Till it recovered and got back on its feet. If the world were happy and only I were suffering, I would go to it and demand: Give me happiness! But since both of us are suffering, the world and I, the world has no one to go to and neither I.)

I wish mrs Magan and everybody else all the best. Same to you.




Friday, May 19, 2006 11:18:00 am  
Anonymous Barbara Schuddeboom said...

Hm. I don't understand. I already posted my message twice. Now I am only seeing it here, in the small box, but not on the official page.

Weird.

Friday, May 19, 2006 11:32:00 am  
Blogger Minuteman said...

I noticed Rune making a comment about Islamic fundamentalism versus a better Islam. There is no such thing. When the term "fundamentalist Christian" is used, the meaning is invariably one who holds strictly to the basic fundamental tenets of Christianity, more so than average Christians. A fundamentalist Christian would call average Christians "backsliders".

Why is the term "Islamic Fundamentalist" used any differently? An Islamic Fundamentalist holds strictly to the fundamental tenets of Islam and would call moderate Muslims backsliders!

Friday, May 26, 2006 5:28:00 am  
Anonymous Jack Haemon said...

@ Pastorius:

You have obviously not been reading my comments otherwise you would not have posted a message like this:

"Hey Jack,

Bend over. I'm coming to get you, you little pussy.

I didn't call the Dutch people "fascist." I called Dhimmi's like you fascist. You fucking fascist.

Fuck you, you make me sick. Islam will be good for you. Have you bought yourself a burqa yet, you pussy?"

That's a real adult way of discussing things. As for me being American, I don't know where you got that from, cause I am Dutch and since I have been watching this situation closely I know what I'm talkin about. Let me tell you this: I voted for AHA and do not regret it in any way. I think it is sad she is leaving our country in this way, had high hopes for her in our society, if my reactions seemed harsh it was only because I was (and still am) disappointed about the fact that she is leaving. People keep talking about deporting, which was not the case. Even before this whole name issue was at hand, she already had made plans to leave. If she hadn't, she would certainly not have been deported from our country.
I would like to state my profound sadness about the way people use terms like "fascist" in this discussion, therefore I am no longer participating in this discussion here. I am willing to openly discuss this situation, but seeing some people see me as a burqa-deserving fascist I do not see the point in participatin any further (and obviously people will see that as week).

Thursday, July 20, 2006 11:04:00 pm  

Post a Comment

Subscribe to Post Comments [Atom]

<< Home


Older Posts Newer Posts