ORTHODOX ISLAM versus ORTHODOX JUDAISM - a comparison
BOTH ARE WRONG.
LET'S LOOK AT THE FACTS AND SEE IF WE CAN SPOT A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ISLAM AND JUDAISM:
FACT:
NO, NOT A SCINTILLA OF SIMILARITY.
FACT:
NO, NOT A SCINTILLA OF SIMILARITY.
FACT:
NO, NOT A SCINTILLA OF SIMILARITY.
FACT:
NO, NOT A SCINTILLA OF SIMILARITY.
NO, NOT A SCINTILLA OF SIMILARITY.
Any and all policies which equate the two are not only immoral, but they are doomed to fail because they're based on a delusion.
The delusion may be antisemitic or postmodern - it matters not. It's a delusion.
LET'S LOOK AT THE FACTS AND SEE IF WE CAN SPOT A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ISLAM AND JUDAISM:
FACT:
- Islam doesn't permit non-Muslims to go to Mecca - its religious capitol.
- Jews not only allow non-Jews into Jerusalem and live there, the Temple Mount - the most sacred real estate in all Judaism - was put under the control of the Muslim Waqf by Israelis.
NO, NOT A SCINTILLA OF SIMILARITY.
FACT:
- For nearly 1500 years - and today in many nations and in more and more communities worldwide - Islam has forced non-believers to adhere to Muslim law.
- Judaism doesn't expect or demand gentiles to follow Jewish law or customs. (Orthodox Jews don't even expect all other JEWS to - though they'd prefer it!).
NO, NOT A SCINTILLA OF SIMILARITY.
FACT:
- Islam aggressively seeks converts - sometimes under pain of injury or death, sometimes under threat of genocide.
- Judaism doesn't seek converts. Never has.
NO, NOT A SCINTILLA OF SIMILARITY.
FACT:
- Islamo-terrorists and islamo-terrorist groups - (such as Al Qaeda, Hamas, Hizballah, Abu Sayyaf, et al) - act in accordance with written Muslim laws, to the principles and traditions of Islam explicitly articulated in the Koran and Hadiths; they are not "renegades" misinterpreting a "religion of peace"; [this according to Muslim and Muslim-scholar Irshad Manji, who has written extensively and argued far and wide that Binladen and his ilk are "LITERALISTS" and that Islam needs a reformation which would entail seeing much of Muslim "scripture" as "FIGURATIVE".]
- Jewish fundamentalists not only don't seek submission of non-believers; they don't even harass reform Jews who practice gay marriage and have female rabbis - though both are anathema to their core beliefs.
NO, NOT A SCINTILLA OF SIMILARITY.
- Additionally, Jews have contributed enormously to human progress and modernity in every realm - science, humanities, arts, letters, and so on, and have done so - despite horrific persecution - in nearly every nation, in nearly every decade for the last 2000 years.
- Muslims have contributed ZILCH.
NO, NOT A SCINTILLA OF SIMILARITY.
Any and all policies which equate the two are not only immoral, but they are doomed to fail because they're based on a delusion.
The delusion may be antisemitic or postmodern - it matters not. It's a delusion.
24 comments:
Pastorius,
They may just be desperate not to face up to reality.
Pastorius,
you said,
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Muslims have contributed ZILCH
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well in all fairness that's not entirely true, although they haven't contributed anywhere near as much as the Jews or secular Western Europeans, or American Christians. Which says a lot, doesn't it?
By the way we can also add the Japaneses to the list of people who have contributed more to our world than Muslims. Their society is extremely high tech and I don't think that there are many Muslims that live there.
Jewel,
Did you mean to say "Muslims are the pirates of our age"?
I don't know what a Pakled is.
Damien,
I didn't write this. Reliapundit at the Astute Bloggers wrote it.
You are correct. It is not entirely fair to say Muslims have contributed zilch. However, it is almost true to say that Muslims have created nothing in the past twenty years.
For instance, the UN report on Developing Nations (published in 2002) in the Arab world explained that while the tiny nation of South Korea had been awarded over 17,000 patents in the decade of the 90's, the entire Arab world had only received something around 100 patents in that same time period.
That's astonishing, isn't it?
muslims contributed ZERO original ideasto Western Civ.
ZERO.
not a single thing.
name ANY.
zero was indian.
all advances claimed by muslims were of their captive cultures.
...And all claims by Reliapundit are unsubstantiated?
It is going to be hard to prove that no muslim has ever done anything to "contribute to human progress."
I am going to have to see a lot of citations.
Xenophobia is the product of intellectual laziness.
Infidel Blogger Alliance:
Fighting fire with fire since 2004!
Malcolm,
What do you think the patent situation with regards to the Arab world. That's verifiable. Look it up.
Instead of just telling a person they are wrong, why don't you do some research. Criticism without research is the mark of an a-hole.
But, since you are in that gear, I'll give you some help:
http://www.meforum.org/article/513
http://plancksconstant.org/blog1/2006/03/muslim_inventions_nobel_prizes.html
http://plancksconstant.org/blog1/2006/03/the_arab_contribution_to_civilization_nothing_lately.html
http://plancksconstant.org/blog1/2006/02/how_the_world_looks_when_youve.html
If you can not be more rational when you come to our blog, do not come at all.
Pastorius,
you said,
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
For instance, the UN report on Developing Nations (published in 2002) in the Arab world explained that while the tiny nation of South Korea had been awarded over 17,000 patents in the decade of the 90's, the entire Arab world had only received something around 100 patents in that same time period.
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I know, it just goes to show how backwards their thinking is.
Reliapundit,
you said,
------------------------------------------------------------------
muslims contributed ZERO original ideasto Western Civ.
ZERO.
not a single thing.
name ANY.
zero was indian.
all advances claimed by muslims were of their captive cultures.
------------------------------------------------------------------
I do remember watching a show on the history channel. It was an episode of "Ancient Discoveries" and it talked about technology developed by middle Eastern Arab Muslims. However I can't remember what the name of the episode was.
Dear Pastorius,
Please do not try to change the argument. My original statement was very simple: you cannot prove that Muslims have contributed "ZILCH" to "human progress."
This isn't about the last 20 years. This isn't about how many patents the Islamic world has garnered, its HDI scores, its GDP, or the number of Nobel prizes it receives.
It is clear to a casual observer that the Islamic world is lagging the West, and has been behind for maybe 700 years, give or take a century.
But to claim that no muslim has done anything to contribute to the world, ever, is pure idiocy. It is unnecessary to refute it because it is simply false. Conveniently, however, one of the links you provided disagrees with the claim that muslims have contributed nothing.
http://plancksconstant.org/blog1/2006/03/the_arab_contribution_to_civilization_nothing_lately.html
He writes that the Islamic world has invented many things, "a thousand years ago."
The use of Planck's Constant as a source for impartial information about Islam is laughable but that is beside the point.
Since you have asked me to be rational, I hope that you will follow your advice and concede the fact that Muslims have contributed something to the world.
Malcolm.
For Reference.
===============================
Muslims have contributed ZILCH [to human progress]. - Pastorius.
What do you think the patent situation with regards to the Arab world. That's verifiable. Look it up.
Instead of just telling a person they are wrong, why don't you do some research. Criticism without research is the mark of an a-hole." - Pastorius.
It is going to be hard to prove that no muslim has ever done anything to "contribute to human progress. - Malcolm.
"Infidel Blogger Alliance:
Fighting fire with fire since 2004!" -Malcolm.
===============================
Malcolm,
It is clear that to say that Muslims have created or contributed nothing is an exaggeration.
However, it is also clear that your intent is to be an asshole not to be part of the debate.
Right?
You don't agree with us here, then leave.
If you want to add to our subject matter, then do so.
Pastorius.
Debate means discussion or argument.
I AM part of the debate. I am arguing the side that says that Islam is a religion that deserves a little bit of respect. I enjoy arguing. I will not stop.
Nor will I leave.
Your foul language is uncalled for and perhaps hypocritical. I believe you call Muhammad a pervert in the sidebar of this website, so a little controversy and acting like an 'asshole' is not out of place, no?
(I am an aetheist but I generally find that insulting major religious figures comes across poorly).
Reliapundit is unrepentant, apparently.
MJE.
===============================
Malcolm,
It is clear that to say that Muslims have created or contributed nothing is an exaggeration.
However, it is also clear that your intent is to be an asshole not to be part of the debate.
Right?
You don't agree with us here, then leave.
If you want to add to our subject matter, then do so.
What are you BRINGING to the debate.
You've disagreed with a point which was OBVIOUSLY wrong.
That's like the smart-assed kid in the Junior High classroom correcting the teacher on an accidental grammar mistake.
Congratulations to you. You're the smartest guy at this dumbass blog.
Now, what do you think about Islam vs. Orthodox Judaism?
You did post it, and it is written in capital letters. It was preceded by very serious accusations. I was offended by the implications.
How did such a flagrant error slip into the post? Doesn't that undermine the purpose of the rest of it?
But about Orthodox people of both sides? I didn't particularly care about that part. I did not follow either link at the top. I know little about Orthodox believers of either religion. Therefore, no comment.
MJE.
There you go, Malcolm. I knew you were not interested in contributing to the discussion.
I knew it.
How did I know that? YOu ought to ask yourself that question. Because, there is something that is very apparent about you, which you are not aware of.
I'm sure this happens to you all the time, dude. You walk around in life, and you say stuff, and people react like this towards you, because you are not a serious human being. You are a joker without a sense of humor. Because you lack humor, you have replaced it with a dark sarcasm against the human spirit.
Congrats to you. I called you out, and you have revealed yourself.
ISLAM IS 1500 YEARS OLD.
AND HAS CONTRIBUTED NOTHING TO HUMANITY EXCEPT THE BURQA.
100 PATENTS!?!?!
ANYONE CAN GET A PATENT.
ZILLIONS ARE GIVEN EVERY YEAR.
HOW MANY ARE REALLY USEFUL?
NOT MANY.
HOW MANY ARE IMPORTANT?
FEWER STILL.
HOW MANY GREAT SCIENTISTS AND DOCTORS ARE MUSLIM!?
VERY FEW.
IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RACE.
IT HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH THE FACT THAT IN ISLAM THE KORAN IS THE WHOLE OF KNOWLEDGE AND ANYTHING WHICH CONTRSDICTS IT IS VIRTUALLY BANNED.
THE LATE MICHAEL DEBAKEY WAS LEBANESE. A CHRISTIAN ARAB.
HIS FAMILY LEFT LEBANON IN THE TURN OF THE 20TH CENTURY BECUSE OF PERSECUTION BY MUSLIMS.
HE IS NOT ALONE.
OH OH OH OH OH OH:
AQ KHAN IS A MUSLIM NUCLEAR SCIENTIST WHO CONTRUBITED TO.....
WOTLD TERROR! (HE WAS SPOON-FED THE SECRETS BY THE CHINESE WHO STIOLE THEM.)
WE NEED TO LIBERATE THE MUSLIMS FROM ISLAM AND BRING THEM - OUR BROTHERS AND SISTERS OUR COUSINS - INTO MODERNITY AND WESTERN CIVILIZATION.
THERE IS NO GOOD REASON TO LEAVE THEM CONSIGNED TO ISLAM.
FDR WOULDN'T HAVE LEFT THEM TO SUFFER ISLAM'S TYRANNY.
HIS FOUR FREEDOMS SPEECH SAYS IT PERFECTLY CLEARLY.
READ IT.
IT SAYS THESE FREEDOMS ARE FOR PEOPLE EVERYWHERE.
HUMAN FREEDOM IS NOT A SIDE EFECT OF GOVERNMENT.
THEY ARE OUR NATURE.
IT IS OUR NATURE TO BE FREE.
ALL HUMANS EVERYWHERE DESERVE THEIR RIGHTS.
AS PEOPLE WHO HAVE THEM WE HAVE A DUTY TO HELP THOSE WHO DON'T.
WE VANQUISHED SLAVERY, NAZISM, FASCISM AND COMMUNISM.
WE CAN DEFEAT ISLAM.
Watch RP, now Malcolm will criticize your use of caps. He won't have anything to say about Islam vs. Orthodox Judaism. He probably has no idea what's in the Koran, or what it says in the Hamas Charter. He probably has no idea who Ibrahim Hooper is, or what CAIR stands for, or who started CAIR, or even what CAIR is.
But, he sure does know how to correct us on minutiae.
Dear RP and P,
Many things have happened while I was away. Mostly I got a free psychological evaluation, a rant, and then a request for information that the asker doesn't want answered.
No time - I must go to class now - but I'll be back. See you soon!
Love,
MJE.
I'm just really nervous that Obama doesn't understand the muslim at all. though this had nothing to do with your current subject, it's relevant to the entire globe and clearly shows the teachings of islam that no religion in the world can accept or claim to have remotely anything in common with.
Bad news from Obama's Inaugural address:
Quotes from Obama’s inaugural speech:
“For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of ‘Christians’ and Muslims, ‘Jews’ and ‘Hindus’ — and ‘non-believers.’ ”
AND:
“To the Muslim world, we seek a new way forward, based on mutual interest and mutual respect.”
Just what kind of mutual interest and mutual respect can we there be with people who profess this?
Quotes from the Koran:
--The unbelievers are your inveterate enemy. (4:101)
-- Surely the vilest of animals in Allah’s sight are those who disbelieve. (8.55)
-- Mohammed is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another. (48:29).
-- It is unlawful for a believer to kill another believer, accidents excepted. (4:92)
-- Believers, take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends. (5:51)
-- Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God's religion shall reign supreme. (8:40)
-- Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme. (2:193)
-- The true believers fight for the cause of God, but the infidels fight for the devil. (4:76)
-- We will put terror into the hearts of the unbelievers. (3:151)
-- I shall cast terror into the hearts of the infidels. Strike off their heads, strike off the very tips of their fingers. (8:12)
Quotes from the sayings of mohammed:
Muhammad said to the Jews: "If you embrace Islam, you will be safe. You should know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle, and I want to expel you from this land. “
Sahih Bukhari [4:52:176] Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:
Allah's Apostle said, "You (i.e. Muslims) will fight with the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O 'Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.' "
Mohammed said, "I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, "None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.." (otherwise it will not). Vol. 4:196
Mohammed said, "Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him." Vol. 9:57
Mohammed said, " No Muslim should be killed for killing a Kafir" (infidel). Vol. 9:50
Muhammad said:
Fight in the name of Allah and in the way of Allah. Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war, …(Sahih Muslim 4294)
YUSUF QARADAWI, the spiritual leader of the Muslim brotherhood and the most popular and influential Islamic religious authority in the world today, is on the recommended reading list of local mosques. Among other Islamist-supremacist things, he wrote:
“Islam came to be followed, not to follow; to be dominant, not subordinate."
“Islam came with its complete, comprehensive and eternal sharia (law) for the whole of mankind.”
ABUL MAUDUDI, the most important and popular Islamic writer of the 20th Century, wrote: “The goal of Islam is to rule the entire world and submit all of mankind to the faith of Islam. Any nation or power that gets in the way of that goal, Islam will fight and destroy.”
________________________________________
The statements about Islam above are from the most highly revered and respected Islamic sources, not from "Islamophobes"!
Does Obama agree with these statements?
Does he disagree with them?
Does he even know about them?
Isn't it part of his professional duties as president to know about Islam?
RP and P:
I concede a couple of the points stated in the original post.
1. Yes, Jews let other people into Jerusalem, and Muslims don't allow non-Muslims into Mecca. I am not sure how relevant this is, but it is certainly true.
2. It is also true that Muslims have forced people living in their countries to abide by Sharia law (doesn't the conqueror always determine the terms of peace?) but there are significant exceptions.
For example, in the Ottoman Empire, non-Muslim communities, called "millets," were given a representative in the Sultan's court and freedom to follow their own religious laws.
In 1492 and at other times when the Jews were expelled from Spain and other European countries, they emigrated to the Ottoman Empire, which welcomed them.
In Islamic countries non-Muslims had to pay a tax and often were discriminated against, but there were long stretches when religious tolerance predominated.
Besides, correct me if I'm wrong, but there have only been maybe three times when a country has been ruled by Jews, ever. I know nothing about the Kingdom of Israel or the Hasmonean Kingdom, and I don't know what their policies were. Point being Jews haven't had the opportunity to impose their will on many people.
I have to go to class now and will continue later.
References:
Islam and Toleration: Studying the Ottoman Imperial Model
Author(s): Karen Barkey
Source: International Journal of Politics, Culture, and Society, Vol. 19, No. 1/2, The New
Sociological Imagination II (Dec., 2005), pp. 5-19
Published by: Springer
Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/20059691
Accessed: 23/01/2009 10:11
Jews in the Ottoman Empire in Light of New Documents
Author(s): Robert W. Olson
Source: Jewish Social Studies, Vol. 41, No. 1 (Winter, 1979), pp. 75-88
Published by: Indiana University Press
Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/4467038
Accessed: 23/01/2009 10:15
Note that my school gives me access to JSTOR.
MJE.
Malcolm,
That seems like a very reasonable comment. Thanks.
Here's my response:
1) you say you don't see what relevance there is to the fact that Muslims don't allow non-Muslims into Mecca, while Jews are very open about their country and their Holy Places. I think the relevance is that Islam is, by nature, a supremacist religion, and does not have a mechanism for full inclusion of non-Muslims. They either have to live as second-class citizens, convert, or be killed. Those are the rules. Nowhere are these rules more evident then in Saudi Arabia, which is the physical center of Islam. You are not allowed to bring a Bible into the country of Saudi Arabia. Those who convert from Islam to another religion are killed. Jews are not allowed into the country of Saudi Arabia. Did you know these things? Additionally, Jews are not allowed in Gaza (unless accompanied by an army). That's why all Jews had to clear out of Gaza, before the Palestinians would be happy. Gaza is Judenrein. Anti-Semitism is inherent in the religion of Islam. As it says in the Holy Scriptures of Islam: "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Muslim).
2) You are certainly correct that there is an ebb and flow of tolerance in Islamic governments. In fact, there is a stratification of tolerance in the existing Islamic governments of today. Some governments are more tolerant and some are less. However, it is clear that intolerance is inherent, because there has never been an Islamic country which was tolerant of non-Muslims. Contrast this with China, the U.S., Europe, where tolerance is adhered to today (China does have a problem with Christians) and has been for hundreds of years. Tolerance is inherent in the foundational ideas of Western Civilization, in Greek Philosophy, in Protestant Christianity (where each individual talks to God, and thus is equal in the eyes of the Creator and the Law), and in Judaism, which is the religion where the idea that all are equal in the eyes of the law came from. (Just for the record, it is my opinion that Catholicism is relatively a very tolerant religion, however, it is clear that there have been periods of intolerance under Catholic Monarchies. And, in my opinion, Monarchism is inherent in the structure of the Catholic Church, where individuals are seen as needing the arbitration of a Priestly class of people who sit in authority over the average person).
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