BUMPED TO THE TOP - SCROLL DOWN FOR NEW POSTS
OUR FELLOW BLOGGER, REVERE RIDES AGAIN, REQUESTED THAT I BUMP THIS TO THE TOP, SO WE CAN SEE IF ANYONE ELSE WANTS TO WEIGH IN ON THE SUBJECT.
I will tell you my answer in the comments section, but I want to hear your opinions, whether you be Protestant, Catholic, Jew, Muslim, Atheist, or whatever. If you want to weigh in, that would be great.
Here's a song to contemplate the question by:
A Song For You
I've been so many places in my life and time,I've sung a lot of songs, I've made some bad rhymes,I've acted out my life in stages,with ten thousand people watching,but we're alone now,and I'm singing this song for you.
I know your image of me is what I hope to be,I treated you unkindly, but darling can't you see,there's no one more important to me,baby can't you please see through me,
cause we're alone nowand I'm singing this song for you.
You taught me precious secretsof the truth withholding nothing,you came out in front when I was hiding,but now I'm so much better,and if my words don't come together,listen to the melody,cause my love is in there hiding.
I love you in a place where there's no space or time,I love you for my life,you are a friend of mine,and when my life is over,remember when we were together,we were aloneand I was singing this song for you.
73 comments:
Me!!!
I guess that means you are a "Catcher".
Er. Pasto, are you familiar with the saying, "Be Careful What
You Ask For Because You May Get It?"
You so do not want atheist comments on this...
Such a great, great song though.
In Judaism the Shechinah is the word used to refer to God's presence among us and is considered to be feminine in nature. That is probably the closest Judaism would get to the concept of a "Queen of Heaven," being that it is a strongly monotheistic faith.
Okay all you Catholics out there, all together now. . .
MARY
Kosher Kitty,
I am so glad you commented. I would imagine the word "Shechinah" is the word used when Jews say they are being visited by the Sabbath Bride.
Am I right?
RRA,
Once again, you suspect me of disliking atheists. For God's sake, how many times do I have to tell you I don't care whether you are an Atheist or not.
I've told you over and over. And, you never respond to my points. You just come in a drop an accusatory bomb like that comment.
I do not think you are being fair with me.
Go ahead and tell me who you think the Queen of Heaven is. If you think it is the equivalent of Satan, I don't mind. Whatever you say, that's fine. It's your right to believe as you believe.
As a Christian, I believe that man's Free Will is so important to God that He was willing to die for it. He could have wiped us out, or made us into automatons, but instead he chose to let us continue to be Free/Imaginative/Creative human beings (in His Image), so He provided another way.
The book of Romans says the following,
"...when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them."
In other words, if one does not understand God enough to have a relationship with Him, then they will be Judged not by the fact that they don't know Him, but instead by the Faith they place faith in the Law written in their hearts.
In other words, if you are a good person, God sees your Faith as Righteousness.
So, please do me a favor and stop dropping accusatory bombs on me.
MR,
There was a Catholic girl at the table when my daughter asked the question, and that was her response.
I do not agree.
This is a Theological distinction between Catholics and Protestants. Another Theological distinction between Catholics and Protestants is that at least Catholics could give you an answer to this question. Most Protestants are so stupid about the Bible they would think my question was silly.
The Bible makes it pretty clear who the Queen is, and Mary is only part of the whole.
That was a hint as to what I believe to be true.
Well this was a toughie! But, i see God as all beings : / so i guess that would mean he fills both roles.
God is flexible like that. =)
LOL
Flexible is a great word to use in the context of the subject.
;-)
RRA,
By the way, Leon Russell is a genius, isn't he?
It's amazing that he's pretty much forgotten.
The Church.
Ro
Ro and I are in agreement.
I'm glad I didn't have to say it.
Ro, do you agree with me that almost no Protestants would know the answer to the question?
Good question. I think that the doctrine of the Church as being both the "Bride" and "Body" of Christ is being taught in some denominations, but so many Protestant denominations are so reactionary and anti-Catholic that they downplay it.
Same with the doctrine of Communion, and anything remotely sounding "sacramental."
I grew up RCC and left over various issues that I just could not believe. But I am not threatened by RCC teaching in these areas - most are plainly rooted in the Bible.
They have, particularly in the past, been taken to extremes such that one could make an argument that the thing has become more important than God, (the devotion to Mary, seeingly at the expense of her her Son comes to mind) but the reaction is just as bad.
I believe, for example, that Mary WAS special. She was gifted with what I understand many young Jewish women thought would be the greatest honor - to bear the Messiah. She was hailed by the angel as "full of grace" - she was the one to communicate to her Son that His ministry actually was to begin. He said "my time has not yet come." Well, Mary thought it had. She said "do what He tells you" in reference to the wine problem at the Cana wedding and so Jesus's public ministry was inaugurated. She was prophesied to have her "heart pierced" - a reference to a suffering only a mother (sorry dads, to be a chauvinist, but there it is) could know while her Son bore the sins of the world.
So I think Protestantism has been afraid to acknowledge that she was very much like the Hebrew prophets and is a worthy theological study and a worthy saint to be honored.
But she is the "Queen of Heaven" only in "type." The Church (of which she is a part, as you alluded to earlier) is supposed to be the agent of God on earth now; and is to be glorified as His Bride in eternity.
Many Protestants don't like to talk about that too much because they think it implies having to believe in a physical manifestation of the Church on earth with an administration and hierarchy on a par with the RCC.
But it is pretty clear in Colossians and Ephesians that the Church will reign with Him, (His "Queen.")
So, I guess I said all that to say "yes"!
(Sorry to have run off at the keyboard).
I was just talking about this with a Catholic friend of mine, oddly enough.
Ro
Pasto
The essence of the question your daughter asked is whether there is a female divinity of equal status to the male divinity who is King of Heaven. The answer, obviously, is no.
Mary is not the queen/consort/wife of God. She bore God's son but that was via the Holy Ghost, but she's not his wife either. She's Joseph's. And she didn't stay a virgin after Jesus was born -- he had how many half-siblings? She is the Queen of Heaven in the sense that people craved a feminine devine presence and she was the best choice available, and so developed the excellent and long venerated Cult of Mary. But she is not considered co-equal with the dominant male supernatural being that is God.
In the pagan "novel" by Apuleius, The Golden Ass, when the goddess Isis comes to the aid of Apuleius she describes herself thus: "I am she that is the natural mother of all things, mistress and governess of all the elements, the initial progeny of worlds, chief of the powers divine, queen of all that are in hell, the principal of them that dwell in heaven, manifested alone and under one form for all the gods and godesses. At my will the planets of the sky, the wholesome winds of the seas, the lamentable silences of hell be disposed; my name, my divinity is adored throughout all the world, in divers manners, in variable customs, and by many names."
That is a Queen of Heaven. Of course, in the religions of the Book that essentially the description of God. The free, creative human being who runs the Universe (if we are made in his image, what other description applies?) is male, and there is no female equivalent. I'm just referring to the mythical concepts here. I don't believe in a Queen of Heaven any more than I believe in a King of Heaven. Or Heaven, for that matter.
I do know of the concept of the Sheckinah, which is closer to the idea of a male-female divine presence. However, I am not aware that there is anything female about the Christian God, who is always referred to as He. Yes, I do know that the church is called the "Bride", but is that not still a subservient position relative to the all-male Trinity?
By the way, "if one does not understand God enough to have a relationship with Him" is a condescending, patronizing remark. I was discussing with a friend on an unrelated site why Christians don't see why we emotionally recoil when they tell us, in effect, God loves you anyway and will be there when you die to show you how wrong you have been all along. (It's an old Harry Potter site and we were discussing how Rowling ultimately made love of Harry - her Christ figure - the only viable standard of goodness in her characters, thereby rejecting any of her readers who did not keep the Chosen One first in their hearts either. Which was quite a painful revelation for some fans.)
Anyway, this is why some of us prefer to avoid discussions of religion with those who believe we do not "understand" that which they take on faith. It's a bit of a dead end street for us.
Pasto -- At least as far as Catholics go while The Church is the Bride of Christ, Mary is the Queen of Heaven.
"From the earliest ages of the catholic church a Christian people, whether in time of triumph or more especially in time of crisis, has addressed prayers of petition and hymns of praise and veneration to the Queen of Heaven. And never has that hope wavered which they placed in the Mother of the Divine King, Jesus Christ; nor has that faith ever failed by which we are taught that Mary, the Virgin Mother of God, reigns with a mother's solicitude over the entire world, just as she is crowned in heavenly blessedness with the glory of a Queen."
-- Ad caeli reginam 1 (http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_11101954_ad-caeli-reginam_en.html)
You Protestin' upstarts can believe whatever you want :)
(any of my fellow Catholic bloggers out there wanna help me out here I'd sure appreciate it. . .)
I do know where to find one atheist I know you guys will really like -- if you haven't met her already, do check out the wonderful
http://www.youtube.com/user/ZOMGitsCriss
If I'm wrong and there is reincarnation I want to come back looking like this.
Fair warning: the girl is merciless, but you can always just turn down the sound...
Oy. MR, I forgot that if Mary is the mother of Christ she is also the mother of God. Which just makes the whole thing more confusing, but then I just don't understand these things.
Revere -- me either.
MR - as one who grew up in the Church, I know the arguments.
I just find the counterarguments more compelling.
I still think Mary deserves much more attention and honor than she gets from the mass of Protestantism.
She is, in a sense, the mother of all believers. I get that.
And RRA - that is exactly one of her titles in the Catholic Church. I think the Orthodox call her something like the "Theotokos" (apologize for the spelling) - the "God-bearer."
I bet Carlos has some stuff he could contribute.
Ro
Revere -- recognized Cristina without even playing the video. Carlos posted her Hello Muslims video here in early June
http://ibloga.blogspot.com/2009/06/cristina-romanian-warrior.html
Ro -- just presentin' why I said what I said. And yeah, where is that Carlos fellow when you need him :)
The other day, my six year old daughter asked me a great question.
.... and that is, in my agnostic opinion, the root catalyst of all religion.
I can imagine a similar scenario occurring thousands of years ago.
"Daddy why is the sky blue?"
"Mommy, where does the sun go at night?"
..... and then the most important questions.
"Where did we come from?"
and
"What will happen to me when I die?"
I think those questions are hard wired into any cognizant young mind.
But there was another primal force of human nature at work when it came to the parental responses.
"I dont know, Son" is a very difficult group of words to string together for answers to questions your children expect you to know.
So there is a natural tendency, if you dont know the answer, to make up an answer that is plausible, relative to your current understanding of the world.
The first problem is ....... only the generation of parent that made up the answer knows its bullshit.
When the same question is asked by the child a generation later, the second generation parent gives the same answer, but with an unwavering confidence that it is the truth....... because he's believed it all his life...... after all how could it not be true, its what Daddy told me.
What was once an answer of convenience, is now unquestionable fact.
Repeat that process for a few generations and you will end up with an entire tribe (Culture) that believes the same stories.
The individuals that know the stories best will receive an elevated status within that tribe. Others will seek out their advice and consent on all matters spiritual. That elevated position can easily be manipulated into a certain level of control over the tribe, and of course funds will have to be raised to build us a bigger place to congregate and discuss these stories.
The next problem arises when that tribe comes into contact with another tribe who's original parental unit had given a different answer to that first inquisitive child, and now that tribe has an entirely different set of answers to the same basic questions. Allowing those answers to circulate freely within your tribe can only spell trouble for those currently profiting from spiritual needs. The other answers, and those propagating such lies, will need to be forcefully re-educated...... "Gather the warriors, I have a message from God for them".
Repeat that process for a few more generations, and the tribe that turned out to be the best warriors, apparently had the best answers as well, because now every surviving villager in the region believes Their stories.
..... So yeah, Pastorius, I would never give you or anyone else advice on how to raise their children, but the answer to your daughter's questions depend a lot on where / when you were born. I'm sure you're thoroughly convinced that the answers you give her are the only correct ones...... as she probably will be as well, a generation down the road when her kids raise the same questions.
You're but one link in the chain of truth.
..... I was apparently the last link in mine. The answer I'd give is "I dont know".
RRA,
I disagree with you. My comment was not patronizing. You are a righteous human being. And, that is enough. That was the essence of what I was saying.
Howard Stern was once asked by one of his idiot callers, "Why do you meditate? What does it do for you?"
He said, "It's like scratching my ass. It makes me feel better."
That's the way I see my religion. It works for me.
You do what you want, and choose to think I am condescending, patronizing, hateful, or whatever. But, I repeat, I think you are being unfair to me.
Ro,
You said: "I think that the doctrine of the Church as being both the "Bride" and "Body" of Christ is being taught in some denominations ..."
I say: Yes, it is taught in most denominations (once in awhile) but it is not emphasized.
You bring up the point that we are both the Body and the Bride. That is an amazing mystical idea, and it sets alight in the Song of Solomon, which is God calling to His Bride, and His Bride calling back.
Our love for God can be sexual and ecstatic. This is actually a tradition within the Catholic Church, however, not many people read the history.
You said: I believe, for example, that Mary WAS special. She was gifted with what I understand many young Jewish women thought would be the greatest honor - to bear the Messiah. She was hailed by the angel as "full of grace" - she was the one to communicate to her Son that His ministry actually was to begin. He said "my time has not yet come." Well, Mary thought it had. She said "do what He tells you" in reference to the wine problem at the Cana wedding and so Jesus's public ministry was inaugurated. She was prophesied to have her "heart pierced" - a reference to a suffering only a mother (sorry dads, to be a chauvinist, but there it is) could know while her Son bore the sins of the world. So I think Protestantism has been afraid to acknowledge that she was very much like the Hebrew prophets and is a worthy theological study and a worthy saint to be honored. But she is the "Queen of Heaven" only in "type." The Church (of which she is a part, as you alluded to earlier) is supposed to be the agent of God on earth now; and is to be glorified as His Bride in eternity.
I say: Well said. Thanks for the great comment. I agree.
MR,
You don't need any other Catholics to argue for you. I respect what you believe, I just happen to disagree theologically.
As I said with RRA, it's not a big deal to me. I just think it's an interesting topic. I loved that my daughter asked me.
The truth is, if I would have just said, "Mary is the Queen of Heaven," they would have understood.
My answer baffled them.
I wonder how they will remember my answer when they get older.
Will they come to believe as I do, or will they think their Dad is crazy?
:)
RRA,
About that chick on YouTube, yeah, I've seen her before. She is brilliant, and of course, beautiful to behold.
RT,
You said: ""I dont know, Son" is a very difficult group of words to string together for answers to questions your children expect you to know."
I say: I assure you, I did not "make up an answer." This is a question I've pondered for years and years.
And, I have no trouble telling my kids I don't know the answers to their questions. In fact, if you asked my kids, they'd probably tell you that my standard answer to their questions is, "I don't know. Let's go Google it."
You said: "The first problem is ....... only the generation of parent that made up the answer knows its bullshit."
I said: I gotta give you credit. That is a very compelling argument. Touche'.
You said: "When the same question is asked by the child a generation later, the second generation parent gives the same answer, but with an unwavering confidence that it is the truth....... because he's believed it all his life...... after all how could it not be true, its what Daddy told me."
I say: Not at all the case in my circumstance. If I told you what my family was like, you simply would not believe me. Believe me, my family members do not ponder such questions. They don't ponder anything.
;-)
You said: "I'm sure you're thoroughly convinced that the answers you give her are the only correct ones....."
I say: Nope, you got me wrong there. While I may sound opinionated, I am what I call an Agnostic Christian.
Once again, referencing back to an earlier comment I made in this thread, my religion is like scratching my ass. It makes me feel good.
LOL
You said: "You're but one link in the chain of truth."
I say: That's all any of us are.
Do not forget that in our Catholic tradition God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are viewed as three in one(the Trinity), so the traditional earth views of King + Queen will not fit--as in King and Queen of England(king married to the queen etc).
In our tradition, Mary is indeed the Queen of Heaven, as she is the Holy Mother of God(Trinity again), Mother of the Church, Mother of Christ, Queen of patriarchs, prophets, apostles, martyrs, confessors, virgins, of all saints and more.
In the annunciation,when the Angel Gabriel came to Mary and told her that her Son would be King over the house of Jacob for ever, it would be a logical progression for her to be a Queen.
So yes, Catholics believe that Mary, as the Holy Mother of God is Queen of Heaven--but not quite in the sense of the Queen of England.
As far as devotion(I do not say worship of) to Mary leading a Catholic away from the message of her Son--no, for me it gives a fuller picture of what I am searching for--just as there can be no night with out day, how can there be a Son without a Mother and surely Jesus will not hold it against any one for devotion to His mother, we see in the gospels how much He adored her and was competely devoted to her---with His last breath he made certain his beloved Mother would be cared for by his disciple, John.
And finally, Pastorius, I am glad you are raising your child to have faith in something beyond this world. :)
In Mary's Image,
Thanks for the great comment. I am always interested to hear what Catholics have to say about Mary.
I am not the average Protestant who detests the Catholic veneration of Mary.
If you go to my personal site,
www.cuanas.blogspot.com
you will find, in my sidebar, that I include the "Ratzinger Fan Club". I love the Pope, and I own most of his books, and I have read most of the one's I own
Addtionally, I studied Catholicism in college, and have been a subscriber to First Things Magazine.
I would have to say that my thinking is, on the whole, more influenced by Catholic thinkers than Protestant.
I just don't happen to agree on the issue of Mary, nor on the issue of the Saints. (Though it is true that the book of Revelation says that the prayers of the Saints waft up towards God in Heaven, like incense.)
That's me. That's just my opinion.
As I keep repeating, everyone ought to believe what they believe if it works for them, and especially if they become a better person by believing it.
Amazing thread. Loving all the comments.
What a thoughtful and respectful group.
I also respect the Bishop of Rome as do many, many Protestants and Orthodox believers.
I love RRA's meditation on the "goddess" above also.
Hey Carlos, where are you??
G'night all.
Ro
Ro,
Yes, actually, thank you for pointing that out.
I agree, RRA's quotation about the Godess is beautiful.
Hey why should we care who the Queen of Heaven is?? And why are we calling God "King" to begin with?? Isnt he already greater than all our kings ever were or could be by the very fact that we call him "God"?
I think its a bit weird calling God a King and then going on to say that Mary is the Queen of Heaven. It sounds plain wrong. Did God not command man and woman to join together and become 1? And what use does God have for a queen exactly? And if we were to drop the title King and just call God "The God" would we then call Mary "The Goddess" or Gods special woman or wife?
Religion is too confusing for me but I have deep respect for Christianity and Judaism. May God be blessed and Im sorry if I offended anyone.
Can't take credit for that one. In the story it was Apuleis, and he became a priest of Isis after she saved him from making an ass of himself. Literally.
RT, I like your analysis. That first daddy-daughter go waaaaaay back. Religion, like philosophy, which was a later development, seeks to answer questions. But most religions insist on one answer to the source of all of existence: a god, and a single basis for morality: that god's Will. Anyone who disagrees is suspected of amorality for finding a basis for morality (to an Objectivist, the nature of reality and of human beings and the requirements for life as human beings) other than the Will of the god which is all-good and must be obeyed even if you don't understand it. It all becomes rather circular and confusing for some of us.
I am atheist because just functionally I take reality very seriously. If I became convinced there was an omnipotent universe-sized version of an elderly human male in control of everything I do and that I had no choice but to obey his commands and not to question the obvious contradictions, I would probably react by becoming psychotic and unable to function. This, to a religious believer, translates as "lacking in faith" and therefore inferior. I don't think most religious people comprehend that atheists are constantly aware of this implied reproach or how averse we get to dealing with it and simply decide to avoid the subject whenever possible.
You are all totally wrong
Sensible men all know who the queen of heaven, and all things is and must be.
Well, I'm late to this thread.
Frankly, I never worried about this matter. What God decides, God decides.
IMO, the Queen of Heaven is the Bride of Christ - the body of believers (the church).
RRA you said:
"If I became convinced there was an omnipotent universe-sized version of an elderly human male in control of everything I do and that I had no choice but to obey his commands and not to question the obvious contradictions"
We do have a choice to obey His commands or not to obey. We have free will. I don't know about the religious people you've spoken with, but myself, I question everything all the time, not out of rebellion, I just want to know why we are supposed to believe what we believe. I find it makes the substance of my faith much richer. (I have a vision in my head now of the look on Sister Joseph's face as I ask once again "But, why Sister?" lol )
Anon: please see my comments about the Holy Trinity reguarding your question about God and Mary. It seems as though you are assuming a King and Queen must have marital ties. This is not always so,in ancient times the mothers of kings were held in high regard and often were advisors and counselors to their sons.(Queen Mother) I'm thinking of a particular story from the old Testament, but for the life of me I can't pull it out of my brain for reference...Iwill check on it later though if you like.
Epa, not to be confrontational, but i disagree that we are all totally wrong. My beliefs may be different than yours, but they are not wrong.
Anonymous at 2:23 PM,
You said: I think its a bit weird calling God a King and then going on to say that Mary is the Queen of Heaven. It sounds plain wrong. Did God not command man and woman to join together and become 1?
I say: BINGO!
That was one of the points I wanted to make in this thread. I love that others are making the point for me.
As Ro said, The Church is both "the Body" and "the Bride" of Christ.
Think about that. That means the two have become One.
In Mary's Image,
Knowing Epa, I believe his comment was meant to be humorous.
Pastorius, Ooooohhhhh...haha, silly me :)
AOW,
See, this thread is shaking out the way I thought it would. Protestants believe it is the Church. Catholics believe it is Mary. Jews seem to believe it is the Shabbat Bride (though they don't worry about doctrine as much as we Christians do.) And, Atheists think the whole question is ridiculous, and I don't blame them.
:)
This kind of stuff is fun to me.
In Mary's Image,
Here's a question for you, if there are no marital ties between the King and Queen of Heaven, how do you read the Song of Solomon?
Why Pasto...I believe you know me too well.
BTW, I am paraphrasing Benjamin Disraeli .. on a nearly identical question.
And I believe his answer is unarguably correct in every way
Yeah. I don't know the Disraeli quote, but I'm guessing the point is, the Queen of Heaven is your wife, and what she says rules, because she's got the Pussois.
Disraeli when asked what religion he ..wink wink REALLY practiced said ...
"Sensible men all have the same religion"
PAUSE PAUSE..reporter then asks what religion is that?
"Sensible men never say"
But in my case....OUI, ma femme, mon ami ..TOUJOURS ma femme.
Ah, that's a brilliant answer by Disraeli, given the circumstances.
Have we hit the # of comments record yet? Just out of curiosity, does anyone know what the record is?
Epam and Benjamin D: LOL
Pasto has a point: given the Song of Songs and other considerations, where did the frequent outbreaks of hostility to sex in various Book-based religions come from? (OTOH, the Puritans advocated great marital sex because they thought women couldn't conceive without orgasm. Sometimes a little ignorance can be a very good thing indeed.)
The mythologies are all quite fascinating and I can appreciate them as such. I did my grad degree thesis on the Greco-Roman Eleusinian Mysteries rite and greatly enjoyed it.
The record for comments on a thread at this site is somewhere around 150, if I recall correctly.
We've had a few threads like that.
The IBA Mohammed Cartoon contest was a long thread, as were several of my "Fuck the BNP" threads.
As to the question of where the hostility to sex came from, I don't know the answer to that.
As for the Puritan comment; LOL
It's running down. Bump it.
Ok.
So, you think more people will want to weigh in, huh?
So, you guys want to hear about the Eleusinian Mysteries, or what?
It doesn't really have a Queen of Heaven, but it does have a lot of good ancient Greek gods soap opera stuff.
Yes, definitely.
I also have a question for you. Do you think that we modern day people have turned our celebrities into the equivalent of Olympus?
I think so.
I think they are our gods.
Signed,
Keeping Up With The Kardashians
Just a young teenager commenting on something way above my comprehension.
Jewish thought uses it more metaphorical example .The various genders assigned to the metaphors depend on the vocabulary.The Shabbos Queen means the extra soul we receive on Saturday signifying its holiness.According to the Maimonides 13 principles G'd has no physical embodiments at all ,only attributes.
RRA - If you have the time to comment on this stuff, I would love to read about it.
You distill things nicely.
Upstart (formerly Ro)
Anonymous Young Teenager --
1) I wouldn't let your folks know the kind of rabble you're hanging out with.
2) I wouldn't worry about commenting on something way above your comprehension. The fact that you have enough interest in finding out what's going on in the world to read sites like IBA speaks volumes to your level of comprehension compared to a very great many of your peers.
Welcome.
Ro -- a finer upstart I've never met. Are you SURE you won't consider posting here? It's easy. It's Fun. It's a great way to spend summer vacation and long winter nights. It's profitable! Pasto might even make you Babe of the Week!
Pasto -- What's with the Kardashians? I have a hard enough time keeping up with the Jones'.
These folks wearin' a boa or sumpin?
Well, the God of Israel is called, "my King and my God," in the psalms, but I don't believe I have ever seen the phrase "King of Heaven" in the bible, so other than being an exercise in speculation from the start, there is no basis for asking this question in reality.
On the other hand, the phrase "Queen of Heaven" does occur in the bible, but it refers to the pagan goddess Astarte or Ishtar. The people of Israel are warned by their prophets to stay away from her and not to worship her.
I am a Greek Orthodox, and there is a prayer that all Orthodox Christians pray to the person of the Holy Spirit, and in it He is addressed as "O heavenly King." This is the closest we come to using a title such as the "King of Heaven."
Mary, the birth-giver of God (in Greek, Theotokos), is called a queen and even the "Queen of Heaven" in certain poetic passages in church prayers and hymnography, but this is understand not as a dogmatic statement, but a poetic one.
Back to the prayer to the Holy Spirit, "O heavenly King," this phrase too is not intended to be dogmatic but evocative and poetic.
So where does all this leave us? Jesus Himself taught us how to pray to God. He does not tell us to address God as "King" but as father. Rather than taking God down a notch to a mere father, it kicks us up a notch to being sons. Sons of what or of whom?
Jesus' prayer addressed to God as "our Father" still says, "Thy Kingdom come," and hence, where there is a kingdom, their must be a king, so God whom we address as Father is the king of the "kingdom," but that still doesn't imply "King of Heaven": but "King of the Kingdom of the Father."
All this shows is that "Heaven" itself has to be defined in terms of the bible, or even more precisely, in the terms that Jesus defined it. Yet, in all of the bible, and even in all of Jesus' words, "Heaven" is never defined. He only says things like, you cannot see it unless you are born again, you cannot enter it unless you are born of the water and the Spirit. He never says, "Heaven is…" but rather "Heaven is like…"
I think your question is not a serious one, and so I apologise for giving a serious answer. But for some religious people, your question will seem to be serious, and it will seem to them that I am playing the part of sophist in my response.
The fact is that the Church in general has been satisfied for centuries to define what is indefinable, for the comfort of the people, and for ease of controlling them, that is, leading them to "heaven" the easiest and most economical way. Thus, a whole literature of misinformation has developed out of which has arisen a whole tradition of ineffective but necessary practices that gives the average churchable a sense that "God's in His Heaven, all's right with the world."
But the Word of God is alive and active, and the living Christ is still acting as our Great High Priest before His heavenly Father who is also now our heavenly Father, and everything not only in this world but in all worlds is leading to the Feast, the Wedding Feast of the Lamb.
And yes, we have been told who the Bride is.
Ρωμανός ~ Romanós ,
You said: "Well, the God of Israel is called, "my King and my God," in the psalms, but I don't believe I have ever seen the phrase "King of Heaven" in the bible ...
I say: That's a good point. But remember, this was a question posed to me by a six year old. I was just using her words.
And anyway, this post is just about speculation.
You said: Mary, the birth-giver of God (in Greek, Theotokos), is called a queen and even the "Queen of Heaven" in certain poetic passages in church prayers and hymnography, but this is understand not as a dogmatic statement, but a poetic one.
I say: That's interesting. Thanks for telling me that.
You said: Jesus' prayer addressed to God as "our Father" still says, "Thy Kingdom come," and hence, where there is a kingdom, their must be a king, so God whom we address as Father is the king of the "kingdom," but that still doesn't imply "King of Heaven": but "King of the Kingdom of the Father."
I say: Revelations says,
"I am (A)the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God,who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."
More
You said: Yet, in all of the bible, and even in all of Jesus' words, "Heaven" is never defined.
Heaven was, is, and is to come.
It is present with us now, but it will be fully revealed when the time comes. That is my reading of the Bible.
You said: I think your question is not a serious one, and so I apologise for giving a serious answer.
I say: My question is a serious one to me. It doesn't matter much to me what other people believe, so in that sense it is "speculation". People can believe what they want to believe. I am not out to change anyone's belief.
But, believe me, this is a serious issue to me.
You said: The fact is that the Church in general has been satisfied for centuries to define what is indefinable, for the comfort of the people, and for ease of controlling them, that is, leading them to "heaven" the easiest and most economical way. Thus, a whole literature of misinformation has developed out of which has arisen a whole tradition of ineffective but necessary practices that gives the average churchable a sense that "God's in His Heaven, all's right with the world."
But the Word of God is alive and active, and the living Christ is still acting as our Great High Priest before His heavenly Father who is also now our heavenly Father, and everything not only in this world but in all worlds is leading to the Feast, the Wedding Feast of the Lamb.
And yes, we have been told who the Bride is.
I agree with everything else you said in the above passage.
I'm looking forward to sitting down at the table with my family, at the Wedding Feast of the Lamb.
What a Wedding that will be.
I say: Great. I'm glad you have been told who the Bride is. American Protestant Christians do not know their ass from a hole in the ground.
Anonymous (young teenager),
I agree with what you say in quoting Maimonides. (I'm going to have to read him, I think every quote I read from him is brilliant.)
Thank you very much for commenting.
I think the TV Show Keeping Up With The Kardashians is a sign of the End Times predicted in the Bible.
;-)
I think it may be the stupidest show ever to come out of a TV. It is an abomination in the Temple. It is an abomination of desolation.
There is no god. There is no heaven. There is no queen. Tell your daughter she is the master of her own future. She is a member of the most advanced species on earth. She should not allow others to dictate what she thinks.
Just Another Infidel,
That sounds reasonable to me.
Here's something you might be interested in:
http://cuanas.blogspot.com/2006/01/foundation-of-western-democracy.html
The Church’s one foundation
Is Jesus Christ her Lord,
She is His new creation
By water and the Word.
From heaven He came and sought her
To be His holy bride;
With His own blood He bought her
And for her life He died.
She is from every nation,
Yet one o’er all the earth;
Her charter of salvation,
One Lord, one faith, one birth;
One holy Name she blesses,
Partakes one holy food,
And to one hope she presses,
With every grace endued.
The Church shall never perish!
Her dear Lord to defend,
To guide, sustain, and cherish,
Is with her to the end:
Though there be those who hate her,
And false sons in her pale,
Against both foe or traitor
She ever shall prevail.
Though with a scornful wonder
Men see her sore oppressed,
By schisms rent asunder,
By heresies distressed:
Yet saints their watch are keeping,
Their cry goes up, “How long?”
And soon the night of weeping
Shall be the morn of song!
’Mid toil and tribulation,
And tumult of her war,
She waits the consummation
Of peace forevermore;
Till, with the vision glorious,
Her longing eyes are blest,
And the great Church victorious
Shall be the Church at rest.
Yet she on earth hath union
With God the Three in One,
And mystic sweet communion
With those whose rest is won,
With all her sons and daughters
Who, by the Master’s hand
Led through the deathly waters,
Repose in Eden land.
O happy ones and holy!
Lord, give us grace that we
Like them, the meek and lowly,
On high may dwell with Thee:
There, past the border mountains,
Where in sweet vales the Bride
With Thee by living fountains
Forever shall abide!
Inanna/Ishtar/Astarte was originally a Sumerian goddess of love and war, in which, as we know, all is fair. She's the one who had to do a strip tease on the way to a knock down, drag out (or, in Inanna's case, hang on a hook because she lost) fight with her sister in the underworld. Mythologies that old tend to be wikkid bizzawr as we say here in Boston.
Pasto
Despite all the Olympian shennanigans, the Greeks did not take their gods as lightly as we see them now, nor were they merely "celebrities". We do not credit our celebrities with dominion over life, death, fertility, natural wonders, agriculture, prophecy, and the like. Ours have dominion over scandal, Botox, and shopping. At Delphi and at Eleusis the Greek deities were as deeply revered as as those of any other religion.
RRA,
You said: Despite all the Olympian shennanigans, the Greeks did not take their gods as lightly as we see them now, nor were they merely "celebrities". We do not credit our celebrities with dominion over life, death, fertility, natural wonders, agriculture, prophecy, and the like. Ours have dominion over scandal, Botox, and shopping. At Delphi and at Eleusis the Greek deities were as deeply revered as as those of any other religion.
I say: Oh, I see what you mean. Sadly, it seems to me that, in a way, many of us really do take celebrities that seriously, in that we attempt to model our lives after them. Case in point, the Louis Vuitton Purse;
http://www.chrisabraham.com/louis-vuitton-handbag-thumb.jpeg
which has no actual aesthetic quality beyond being a bag branded with gaudi logos all over the outside.
The only reason people buy such SHIT is because they believe it makes them part of Olympus. It's so important to them that they will spend hundreds of dollars of their hard-earned money on this kind of crap.
Do you see what I mean?
Samuel Stone,
Yep.
Pastorius, in answer to your question, no, we don't refer to the Sabbath bride as the Shechinah, we refer literally to a bride. There is a hymn sung Friday nights "Come, beloved, greet the bride." But in Jewish mysticism, the Sabbath is associated with the Shechinah, which is considered to be the feminine, tangible presence of God.
Some Jewish mystical texts say that the Sabbath is an especially propitious day for a husband and wife to be intimate. Don't know if you want to include that in any explanations you make to your six-year-old daughter. :-)
Good for you for taking her serious question seriously. She sounds like quite a young lady, and she is lucky to have you for her dad.
Thanks for the kind words, Kosher Kitty.
I wish I knew more about Judaism.
When you refer to the mystical texts, are you talking about the Kaballah, or are there other mystical texts?
Actually, the Greek, and later Graeco-Roman, yearly festival known as the Eleusinian Mysteries was, along with the prophecies of the Pythia at Delphi, one of the major religious events of that era (like Delphi, it endured over hundreds of years). Basically it was an initiatory celebration of the myth of Demeter, the goddess of agriculture, whose daughter the corn goddess (lots of division of labor with the Greek pantheon) was kidnapped by Hades to be his bride. Big Mama-In-Law threatened to let the earth dry up and blow away if Hades didn't hand Kore (daughter's nickname) back, but before he did he got her to eat a pomegranate which obliged her to spend 6 months of the year down in the underworld with him. In other words, your basic agricultural myth.
But the Mysteries became something much more, a great celebration of Greek life, religion, and culture on the deepest level, open to anyone who had could understand Greek and hadn't murdered anyone. What took place during the final ritual of the celebration was not to be disclosed on pain of death and has never been conclusively identified. In my thesis I postulated that the most fundamental reason for the secrecy was to preserve the emotional power of this rite which was supposed to guarantee its celebrants a better afterlife. ("Elysian Fields" and all that.) That's a very brief description. Oddly, while almost everyone knows about Delphi, the EMs have been largely forgotten -- sort of like knowing about Christianity but never having heard of Christmas celebrations.
Basically, I enjoy reading about religious myths and have done a lot of it between the cult-education work and the Classical Civ thesis. It just gets my back up if someone insists I believe any of them, because it simply is not my understanding of how reality works and it is essential for me to be grounded in reality because I spend a lot of time in the realm of imagination as it is.
Your paper sounds fascinating.
I tend to see mythology from a Jungian perspective. (I studied Religion and Philosophy in my early college career. I collected units towards a Philosophy Degree, and then quit school to dedicate myself to my music. - I later went back to school, in my early thirties, and got a degree in English Lit).
Anyway, point is, because I studied religion and Philosophy, I became very enamored of Jung, Rollo May, and Joseph Campbell.
The Persephone myth is one of my favorites. In fact, I am working on a screenplay which is, in part, based upon it.
Because I love the saints of my faith as my older brothers and sisters in Christ I get a "saint of the day" mail.
This was in my inbox today Pastorius and I thought I would share.
--------------------
August 22, 2009--The Queenship of Mary
Pius XII established this feast in 1954. But Mary’s queenship has roots in Scripture. At the Annunciation Gabriel announced that Mary’s Son would receive the throne of David and rule forever.
At the Visitation, Elizabeth calls Mary “mother of my Lord.” As in all the mysteries of Mary’s life, Mary is closely associated with Jesus: Her queenship is a share in Jesus’ kingship. We can also recall that in the Old Testament the mother of the king has great influence in court.
In the fourth century St. Ephrem called Mary “Lady” and “Queen” and Church Fathers and Doctors continued to use the title. Hymns of the eleventh to thirteenth centuries address Mary as queen: “Hail, Holy Queen,” “Hail, Queen of Heaven,” “Queen of Heaven.” The Dominican rosary and the Franciscan crown as well as numerous invocations in Mary’s litany celebrate her queenship.
The feast is a logical follow-up to the Assumption and is now celebrated on the octave day of that feast. In his encyclical To the Queen of Heaven, Pius XII points out that Mary deserves the title because she is Mother of God, because she is closely associated as the New Eve with Jesus’ redemptive work, because of her preeminent perfection and because of her intercessory power.
Comment:
As St. Paul suggests in Romans 8:28–30, God has predestined human beings from all eternity to share the image of his Son. All the more was Mary predestined to be the mother of Jesus. As Jesus was to be king of all creation, Mary, in dependence on Jesus, was to be queen. All other titles to queenship derive from this eternal intention of God.
As Jesus exercised his kingship on earth by serving his Father and his fellow human beings, so did Mary exercise her queenship. As the glorified Jesus remains with us as our king till the end of time (Matthew 28:20), so does Mary, who was assumed into heaven and crowned queen of heaven and earth.
Quote:
“Let the entire body of the faithful pour forth persevering prayer to the Mother of God and Mother of men. Let them implore that she who aided the beginnings of the Church by her prayers may now, exalted as she is in heaven above all the saints and angels, intercede with her Son in the fellowship of all the saints.
May she do so until all the peoples of the human family, whether they are honored with the name of Christian or whether they still do not know their Savior, are happily gathered together in peace and harmony into the one People of God, for the glory of the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity” (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, 69).
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