Sunday, July 20, 2008

Hitchens vs D'Souza: The Dogma of Materialism


MUSE: THOUGHTS OF A DYING ATHEIST











Posted Jul 18th 2008 1:10AM by Dinesh D'Souza



My Las Vegas debate with Christopher Hitchens continues to attract attention and comment.



If you'd like to read an account of the debate, you can do so here.
(I posted it below~ bz)


Also on Monday July 21, at 4.30 pm Eastern time, I'll be debating Richard Dawkins (yes, Richard Dawkins!) on Al-Jazeera (yes, that Al-Jazeera). This is a noteworthy development because Dawkins has so far refused to debate me. But now we're appearing together on the Riz Khan television show, which I understand has some 25 million viewers worldwide. If you want to watch Monday's debate live you can watch it here. The segment will also be posed on the web and I will link to it on this blog.


I also hope that, upon seeing for himself that I am not a Hitlerite kind of speaker, Dawkins will summon up the courage to step into the public arena with me. Like one of the atheist commenters recently said on Dawkins's own website: all the best spokesmen for unbelief have gotten a whipping from this D'Souza guy and it's now up to Dawkins to try and redeem the reputation of atheism.


Given that my thoughts are currently focused on how to deal with Dawkins, I'm going to post here on a question that seems to mystify him and many other scientific atheists. These fellows wonder: if there is reasonably good evidence for evolution--as, by the way, both Dawkins and I believe there is--why do around 50 percent of Americans refuse to accept it? The conventional wisdom among Dawkins and others is that Americans oppose evolution because they are religiously committed to a literal reading of the Book of Genesis.



But there is a much better explanation of why Americans reject evolution: the idiotic claims of leading champions of evolution who are promoting an atheist agenda. Consider Dawkins himself, rebutting the claim that there are significant "gaps" in the fossil record. Dawkins concedes that there are such gaps, but then writes this: "The gaps, far from being anoying imperfections or awkward embarrassments, turn out to be exactly what we should positively expect."



In other words, the absence of evidence for evolution is itself proof that the theory is correct! This is so bizarre that it makes one wonder what the presence of evidence might do to this theory. Would a complete fossil record without gaps be evidence against Darwinian evolution, as we hear that Dawkins and his fellow biologists "exactly" and "positively" expect that such evidence should not be present?
Dawkins finally puts his cards on the table by saying of evolution: "Even if the evidence did not favor it, it would still be the best theory available." And if Dawkins is dismissed as a crank, here is Harvard cognitive psychologist Steven Pinker making the same point. "Because there are no alternatives, we would almost have to accept natural selection as the explanation of life on this planet even if there were no evidence for it."



We have here the weird spectacle of so-called scientists who are so wedded to a theory that they cannot even imagine it not to be true. This is a level of dogmatism that would embarrass any theist. Even the strongest religious believer can imagine the possibility that there is no God. So how can these self-styled champions of reason adopt so closed-minded an approach?



The short answer is given by Harvard biologist Richard Lewontin, who in a 1997 essay in the New York Review of Books makes a revealing admission: "We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, in spite of its failure to fulfill many of its extravagant proises of health and life, in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment--a commitment to materialism. It is not that the methods of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation for the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori commitment to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, the materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door."



And you thought I was making this stuff up! No wonder Americans are skeptical of these apostles of skepticism. They are peddling their own metaphysical dogmas in the name of science, even though few are as honest as Lewontin in admitting it.




[SNIP]



"The 20th Century was really an attempt to create the secular utopia," D'Souza said. "It's failed miserably. So the one great experiment of creating secularism, of creating the religion-free society, has been a terrible failure."


At the end of debate, the conference host asked the audience – through an informal show of hands – who they thought won. Surveying the hands, the host named D'Souza the champ.


Later that night, the comment about the debate igniting sparks proved eerily prophetic as thunderous lightning bolts lit up the skies above Bally's Las Vegas, the rumbling sound reverberating throughout the Strip.


READ IT ALL


Queen @ Live Aid
We Will Rock You/ We Are the Champions


18 comments:

BabbaZee said...

BTW Freddie's name was

Farook Bulsara

He was Iranian by blood

His people were Zoroastrians

He was buried Zoroastrian style at his request

FERAL PERSIANS AKBAR

Anonymous said...

Is IBA becoming one of those sites where atheists are derided and unwelcome, taunted with silly poetry implying that we will see the error of our ways on our deathbeds? Where evolutionists are accused of being "materialists" who have launched themselves on the slippery slope that leads to Nazism? Are Dinesh D'Souza and Rev. Hagee our new heroes?

Please answer me frankly -- this is to anyone here -- because having to devote so much time educating myself about and worrying over Islamism and the upcoming election is already eating my life. Fighting old wars with evangelicals of various stripes is something for which I have neither desire nor energy.

BabbaZee said...

I have no plans to deride you

I have not derided you

Have I not the right to my POV here or anywhere?

Lots of bloggers post here

Iam only one of them.

I see three enemies not one


ISLAM
COMMUNISM
FASCISM


Dawkins Hitchens et al help the communists and the fascists out
BIG TIME

perhaps they do not MEAN to

that does not matter

I posted an attack on Noam Chomsky the other day ...is that also a problem fo you becasue it is not firectly realted to jihad?

Monolithic thinking will get you killed as fast as anything else will

I am not 24 /7 Islam
I have to loook at all three frogs at all times

I have a biblical POV
i quote the bible

is THAT a problem for YOU?

BabbaZee said...

I am NOT an evangelical BTW

you ASSUMPTION is incorrect

I am a Jew

I belong to NO RELIGIOUS ORGANIZATION


I believe Jesus was messiah

It is ME

and the book

I have no affiliations with any established religion OR political group

and most of them hate my guts


Next?

BabbaZee said...

sorry for the typos

my hands don't always work so well

BabbaZee said...

Are Dinesh D'Souza and Rev. Hagee our new heroes?


LOL
Seems to me

you have the issue here

OUR heroes?

Neither is my "hero"

and you can have whatever "heroes" you wish

And

Who is the OUR, white man?
(old Indian joke)

I have no compunction to disabuse you of whatever your leanings are
there is NOTHING I have said in any of my posts anywhere that even suggests this

so your words betray that for you it is the fact of my POV that disturbs you so

Seems you asked for FRANKLY from the right chick

It is you who have spoken as if I have zero right to my worldview and that by virtue of me merely holding it, and being public about it, it is an ASSAULT on yours

That notion of an assault did not come from me
that came from you

People think with their own heads.

Silly Poetry huh?

Who the fuck is deriding who here?

bah

Anonymous said...

It's only the three Abrahamic religions - Christianity, Judaism and Islam (if Islam could be called a religion) which have problems with evolution.

Buddhism is quite compatible with the theory of evolution. http://kwelos.tripod.com/evolution.htm

Epaminondas said...

"Americans reject evolution"..not where I come from.
Evolution is real ..but then again.. I am in life science research, WTF do I know?

I thought a LOT more of D'Souza when he was writing "What's So Great About America" and not his latest which is obnoxious in his agreement with the wahabbi's complaint that our civilization is licentious and uncontrolled and that 'liberal' yadda yadda yadda are destroying values.

HARAM BALONEY!

The freedoms which have made us what we are allow you to be an asshole and moron. Some take this license and need it to be who they are. That's up to them.

And Hagee? He may be better than a Swaggart, but you can count him off any team I might be on. And vice versa.

To Hagee jews' purpose on earth currently is to bring on the rapture and or end times. STRICTLY.

Worse...

“It was the disobedience and rebellion of the Jews, God’s chosen people, to their covenantal responsibility to serve only the one true God, Jehovah, that gave rise to the opposition and persecution that they experienced beginning in Canaan and continuing to this very day.

How utterly repulsive, insulting, and heartbreaking to God for His chosen people to credit idols with bringing blessings He had showered upon the chosen people. Their own rebellion had birthed the seed of anti-Semitism that would arise and bring destruction to them for centuries to come … it rises from the judgment of God upon his rebellious chosen people.” - John Hagee,"Jerusalem Countdown," pp. 92-93

He can SHOVE IT. That is old school, prima facie anti semitism. It cannot be polished up.

BabbaZee said...

Hagee is to be found nowhere in this post BTW

Hagee happens to support Israel
more than anyone I have ever known
Jewish OR Christian

and no he is not doing it to "bring on the end times"
that is a load of bullshit

I have researched him for 4 years now

I have spoken to him in the past on e mail

and although I do not agree with eveything he says by FAR

or everything ANYONE says for that matter

he is NOT the enemy despite how he has been represented in the media

He has constantly tried to educate his audience on Islan and Jihad
interviews with Walid Shoebat
Brigette Gabriel
and others aare all the time on his broadcasts

he is one of the only ones who has the BALLS to call Islam out

I do not have to agree with someones every word to find them valuable

Besides all that
Which is ancillary to this post anyway

If my GOD is NOT GOD

Why all the visceral reactions to anyone who has the balls to have GOD in the Mouth in Public?

No GOD
Nothing to nihl against
Not one have I proslytized

Here or anywhere

and yet if I speak with GOD in the mouth I am immediateyl accused of being a moron and a fundie

nothing could be futher from true

WTF is everyone so AFRAID of?
hmm?


This "DEBATE"

is not about evolution
it is not about Science
and it is not about religion

IT IS ABOUT CONTROL OF THE TERMS AND DEFINITIONS THAT WILL POPULATE THE MINDS OF THE WEST

It is about controlling your POV and the words in your mouth

It is not about "morality"

it is about WHOSE MORALITY will hold sway in the west

The "Athiest Rule" in the West has a much higher body count then does the Judeo-Christian Rule in the West

This is about destroying the foundations of our culture, about annihilating the basis for western civiliation as surely as Islam is about destroying us


I will not throw GOD under a bus because people have pre concieved notions based on Churchianity and Shuliasm

I will not STFU and hide my POV simply because most people GET IT WRONG and masterflate me with all sorts of things I am not

They will not control the words in my mouth or how I define reality

not now
not ever

and that is exactly WTF they are trying to do as I type this


THis aint about Religion
This aint about Science

THIS IS ABOUT CONTROL

Anonymous said...

Epam, for a minute there I thought you wrote "Harem baloney" which is a very weird visual. I gotta stop reading the blogs before I have coffee.

Babbazee, I will take that as a "yes". Therefore, I will confine myself in the future to comments with people here who are not religious fanatics. Because I will not STFU about how I understand reality either, my girl, and once I get in arguments like this the gloves come right off, and I have better ways to spend my time than flaming you. We are going into a hideously dangerous period defined by a soon to be nuclear Iran and a quite possibly a Marxist-Islamist presidency. This is already eating too much of my life and I refuse to give any more of it to things I left behind long ago.

BabbaZee said...

I have not asked anyone to give up anything

here
or anywhere

except EVIL
I confront EVIL

No matter WTF is DISGUISES ITSELF AS

I have not condemned anyone here
Or elsewhere

I could give a rats ass what anyone believes or does personally

that is not between me and them that is between them and GOD

dig yaselves

I ask again

WTF are you so afraid of?
My POV is that disturbing?

I find this hilarious in a way.

Why are words or actions placed in my mouth and in my way that if you read every word I have every written publicly

(and there are plenty of them)

will never support your
ASSUMPTIONS regarding me?


Again I say

PEOPLE THINK WITH THEIR OWN HEADS

seems to me most who react this way to me would LOVE to force THEIR views on ME

not the other way around


STFU and STFU feral GODMOUTH
Your POV has no place
here
there
everywhere


The only PC Approved "bashing"

is the bashing of anyone no matter what they call themselves that follows the calling of Abraham and KEEPS THE COVENANT

Then it is OK to make all sorts of assumptions and baseless accusations

it is OK to mock and deride

it is OK to use Turnspeak JUST LIKE THE ARABS to make it seem like we started it, how dare we speak GOD in the mouth we must be toothless snake handling evangelical fuckos


I am NONE of those things

i have never told anyone what to believe

and I never will

So why are you so anxious to tell me what I should believe?

WILL THE REAL PROSELYTIZERS PLEASE STAND UP?

Epaminondas said...

In 1942 FDR made alliance with Stalin to eviscerate another evil.

That is my view of Hagee.
His VOLUNTARILY created words, make him a Council of Nicaea anti semite.
That's all there is to it. NOthing more or less.
Therefore his support for Israel is for purposes he views as higher.

Many people and groups support Israel for their own reasons.

Vlaams Belang and BNP support Israel also - but for reasons of ethnic separation. Obnoxious, and reasons which cannot be differentiated from these people.

Many people feel Israel and the jews are in such a corner that any support must be welcomed.

If so, then at least let us be sanguine about WHO is supporting Israel and WHY.

And let us ask what it says about support for Israel. Sooner or later these kinds of 'friends' will, by their acceptance as supporters SPEAK for what Israel will have come to stand for.

Whatever that may be, it cannot be for a white europe and the End of Days, and a rapture which, when refused consigns jews in the mind of these supporters to hell.

Hagee has named himself a supporter of the idea that jews created anti semitism by their own behavior. Behavior which god abhors. That's not putting words or some interpretation on his words, those ARE his words.

Do we need more to question his authenticity as someone who supports Israel as a refuge for jews BECAUSE of that 2500 years of anti semitism?

He can raise all the money he wants. Stalin sent in 5 million men. In the end we still faced him when the other evil was gone.

Let's at least recognize who is in the foxhole, and why.

psaturn said...

Evolution is real ..but then again.. I am in life science research, WTF do I know?

There is no denying that evolution is real on the micro level. It is the macro level that we have challenges...

Babbazee is presenting a point that is virtually ignored in evolutionary discussions...the effect it has on philosophy and worldview. Nihilism would fit evolutionary worldview very well.

Epaminondas said...

You cannot have micro WITHOUT macro.
If your mitochondrial RNA is changed THAT'S MACRO.
You are looking for a third eye, I am talking about an antibody system more resistant to certain kinds of cancer. Cardiac cells better able to withstand the shock of infarction. Neurotransmitters more responsive to flight/fear or pain.

Invisible.
Unmeasurable.
Gigantic.

Damien said...

Epaminondas,

Your correct, evolution is a scientific fact, weather one likes it or not. The evidence behind it is so overwhelming that it has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

revereridesagain

By the way, if you think that the Infidel Bloggers Alliance is turning into an atheism smear site, ask Bosch Fawstin. He's an atheist and he is not complaining.

Epaminondas said...

Here's the thing for me... all discussion is fine.

I am not insulted, offended, or tuned off.

I am TURNED ON.

Every challenge to my thought will either correct an error or strengthen the facts which inform me.

Atheism is just another belief. It ALSO is dependent upon the lack of proof. You cannot prove a negative. It rates the same respect or lack of respect as all others save that one which requires the end of all others, unless you pay the tax.

I am not bothered or upset in the least by any of this.

Damien said...

Epaminondas,

I agree with you, especially since if God is real, he's a being who exists outside the laws of physics. However on the subject of atheism, I was addressing Revereridesagain, but your response was fine.

Pastorius said...

For the record, I agree that Evolution is a scientific fact.

And, for the record, we have several atheist bloggers here, and I want them to feel as compfortable to post their pov's as anyone else.