If Americans from the right are opposed to Obama's healthcare plans that's fine, for them. Continue to shout at town hall meetings - that's your right, for now. Deny basic healthcare to the poor or recently unemployed if you must, they will die sooner than you and then they will be out of your way. Do all of these things and then do one more thing:
Don't drag our NHS into YOUR argument unless you are going to stop the fucking lies.
Before we go further into this let me tell you my own story about the NHS. In the year 2000 I went to the doctor with some small bothersome symptoms. The results of a blood test had the local hospital ringing me urgently within a day or so saying I had to come in. As a result of that, treatment began immediately for a bone marrow condition that meant that my blood was too viscous and so could result in a stroke.
I have attended the hospital every two months for a simple venesection procedure ever since then. There are no drugs as yet for this condition but when they are they will be available from the NHS provided they work - the NHS will not be suckered into the hype of the drug companies.
One more personal story because it is relevant to the lies below. In 2007 I was diagnosed with early stage prostate cancer after a prostate biopsy. I might add that I was having regular PSA tests for many years so it did not come as a surprise. Within 2 days further tests were undertaken - MRI scan and a radioactive marker scan which were both clear meaning it had not spread. Within a further two weeks treatment started.
On the other hand I had an ingrowing toenail and had to wait 3 months for treatment. So what? In my experience the NHS does what is essential with excellence and that is what matters, and it did not cost me a penny except that I paid all my working life with my National Insurance contributions - which were affordable by the way.
Daniel Hannon, the Conservative MEP has lied on American television and should be sacked by Cameron, but he won't be. I am enraged by his lies which I am hearing now as I write on Sky News. He said words to this effect - "if you have prostate cancer they tell you OK go over there, join the queue we will see you next year, in October"
The Republicans are dragging our NHS through the mud in their TV propaganda adverts. If Republicans are so against our NHS perhaps they should stay away in case they become ill while they are over here. The NHS will treat them free of charge BTW and there is no second class treatment for Americans.
I don't support Obama and I almost want his healthcare bill to fail because I want Obama to fail but I'm torn. You see I don't think a country can call itself civilized if it happily allows some of it's citizens to die because they cannot afford healthcare. I don't think it's civilized that a hospital can bankrupt you because you lose your job and your insurance. I don't think it's civilized that some citizens are into an early grave because they cannot afford to see a doctor. Yes, I know you have Medicare but I don't know enough about that just as you don't know about the British NHS.
What I do know is that a British doctor is running a voluntary centre in California and it is inundated with people who would not see a doctor otherwise.
"If you aren't part of the richest 1%, then you know you are living one phone call, accident or illness away from financial ruin because of a medical crisis." Jim McDermott, a Democratic Congressman
One final point: if the NHS is so bad at providing healthcare why is it that the life expectancy in the UK is higher than in the US?
(cross posted with commonsense against islam)
26 comments:
Ray, what you are essentially saying is, "I don't think X is right so I should be able to stick my hand in your pocket and take your money to fix it." On principle that can be applied to anything. And will be, if the Obamabots get their way. I'm all for poor people being able to get good health care. I do not believe that gives the socialist element in this country via the government the right to regulate everyone's lives to that end. That is the way statists and collectivists try to solve everything.
Well,
Find.
Another.
Way.
No, I'm saying leave our health system out of your argument. Ours works and has worked since 1947.
I don't give a flying fuck what you do about your health system.
It's upto the consience of Americans whether the poor get healthcare.
After all America is a country of the survival of the fittest and if that's the way you want it to be then that's upto you.
The poor people in our country all get free healthcare already. The idea that they don't is a lie.
Illegal aliens get free healthcare here.
Here's how they do it. They go to the Emergency room for everything, including when their children have colds.
Emergency rooms are forbidden to deny treatment to anyone. Hence, their service is free, if one provides the incorrect identification. In other words, if you tell them you live in Los Angeles, when you live in Santa Barbara, well then, they can't send you a bill can they?
The only people who can not get free healthcare in this country are people who own homes, and who live on the up and up in terms of providing true identification. In order to get such healthcare, you do have to bankrupt yourself. However, at that point, you are allowed to keep your home, your car, and your personal business property. The government can not take those things from you.
The stories you tell about the NHS sound good. Better than our system here, perhaps.
Where is the motive for innovation within such a system?
Here's the problem with NHS ..MANY OF YOUR FREAKING DRUG DEVELOPMENTS COME FROM HERE.
I have been in cardiac pharmacology research since 1986 .. the draining away of research dollars, and RESEARCHERS from places like the Wellcome Foundation to the USA and Japan, and to those places which are ABLE TO SERVE PROFIT MAKING MARKETPLACES is complete.
We are now IT. If the US marketplace is unable any further to generate the kinds of profit which justify 15-25% of all top line dollars to go into VERY HEAVY RISK TAKING research .. then you can kiss development GOODBYE.
The US consumer is SUBSIDIZING YOUR DRUG RESEARCH RAY.
If profits are to be fixed by the US Govt (as the govt portion of this plan entails), then the research will be dictated by them as well, you can bet.
If you have a condition not justifying the dollars then SO LONG.
Conversely if those with that condition have insurance which will pay for the expense of the drugs, and companies like Hoffman La Roche, CIBA-GEIGY, Warner Lambert, Pfizer and Merck are confident that situation will exist ..they invest.
I know what I am talking about. I have pitched right the guys who decide where that money goes...in Asia, Europe, and the US. I have seen how govts decide how to allocate research $$ and how private industry does.
Without the US consumer subsidizing the research for the socialized Rx costs in other nations, you couldn't buy that rip off cheap Lipitor from Goa.
Right now the Rx companies here are SO PETRIFIED they will do anything to keep off Obama's shit list. What do you think their R&D budget for items not yet started looks like?
Every single nationalized healthcare system rations care based on some governmental decision-making system.
NICE is the new board that does it in England.
I'm sorry, but in England, if you are over a certain age, (it was 65 - it may be younger now), you don't get dialysis for end-stage renal failure. That means you die.
The government decided that. We use your system to illustrate that we don't want our money confiscated by a non-responsive government to then dictate to us when we die.
Sorry, Ray. We are going to use your system as an example of what WE DO NOT WANT. You are more than welcome to keep your big government tit.
The innovation comes mainly from the US, (and, from Israel, too, surprisingly).
The life-expectency numbers in the US are skewed and will be as long as we are free. We have millions upon millions of illegal immigrants from the world's pest-holes coming here for the hope of freedom, work and the ability to build a better life. As Mark Steyn has pointed out, once you conquer the childhood illnesses and have basic hygiene in a society, the life-exepectancy improvements are all pretty marginal (within 6-24 months). Albania has a great life expectancy now.
Many of those coming here come from places where such basics as childhood vaccines and basic hygiene are lacking.
Question is, are you gonna live that life free, with a government that serves you or as a slave, serving the state? I'll take free.
"The US consumer is SUBSIDIZING YOUR DRUG RESEARCH RAY"
Bullshit!!
Many drugs are researched here and then developed by US drug companies who take on a commercial opportunity.
What do you think we are, some third world country? How many inventions including drugs were initiated here in the UK? Too numerous to mention. How about this for a starter from Cancer Research UK:
"We have the largest cancer drug discovery pipeline in the world. And we’ve contributed to the discovery or first trials of nearly 50 drugs now in clinical development"
Google UK research into this and there are numerous links, sorry cannot get links into this comment.
Anonymous said:
"I'm sorry, but in England, if you are over a certain age, (it was 65 - it may be younger now), you don't get dialysis for end-stage renal failure"
I say where do you get these lies from?
Fact: 46% of all patients starting dialysis were over 65.
http://www.renalreg.com/Report-Area/Report%202000/Chapter%2020.pdf
Ray you are simply WRONG.
You are kidding yourself.
Per capita researchers and research dollars
This is what I have done for a living.
We sell to the companies that do the research.
They are our customers
ZILCH left in England.
If you think there is research there it is a pittance and on the govt dole.
Sorry but that is how it is.
By 1996 Japanese BREWERIES (yes, that's right..breweries looking at chemical compounds for activity ..think Guinness is prepared to risk dollars like that?) ALONE FAR OUTSTRIPPED anything going on in England in Rx cardiac research (and as a total I am including revolutionary surgery techniques which require animals for testing as well). We have our own figures and in what we did there was very little competition. We didn't lose cardiac research to someone else... IT ENDED AS A COMMERCIAL PROPOSITION in GB.
If you are being told differently, then it's just like the Daily Sketch front cover in 1938, GOVT BALONEY .. like Baldwin telling the MP's Dornier manufacturing of engines was only 20 per month .. YOU R BEING HAD, because the reality is unpalatable, AND not easily changed.
PARSE THIS "We have the largest cancer drug discovery pipeline in the world"
RU KIDDING?
And paid for by who?
The govt paying as the sole source for research will KILL research. I know this, I have seen it, and I have seen it in Britain. I know the researchers who left .. by the score.. who asked for help finding positions here in the 80's and 90's. And our govt is running out the ability to anything but borrow and print $$.
Medical research is a societal luxury. My plane tickets and hotel bills are a testament to which societies can afford it.
But that begs the point.
If the american govt institutes a plan that fixes Rx prices, YOU TELL ME, what incentive is there for stockholders to back VERY RISKY, MANY DEAD END RESEARCH CHANCES?
Why wouldn't you buy gold instead as American govt debt makes it worth more and more and more? Why wouldn't Rx companies seek other ways to protect and enhance their stock value? Like buying food companies, or Hershey's? Or RJ Reynolds?
It is THAT which is the end point of all this, and it is that which gives the lie to the idea that socialized medicine is a benefit to society.
IN THE END socialized ANYTHING is a sharing of misery, NOT a step forward in progress of mankind (who must be incentivized..with ..OH NO... $$$$$$$$$$$$)
Your pal,
Hank Rearden
I have worked in hospitals in the UK and the US.
The UK is superior for most people...i.e. the Middle Classes etc.
So is Israel.
Sorry.
Obama-Care is modeled after the Massachusetts programme, not the NHS.
The Mass-Health system sucks....and was designed to deny services while filling the state coffers.
But we also have stories like these:
FOX News – Britain’s health care service says it is sick of being lied about. Pilloried by right-wing critics of President Barack Obama’s health care plan, Britain’s National Health Service, known here as the NHS, is fighting back. “People have been saying some untruths in the States,” a spokesman for Britain Department of Health said in a telephone interview. “There’s been all these ridiculous claims made by the American health lobby about Obama’s health care plan … and they’ve used the NHS as an example. A lot of it has been untrue.”
Daily Mail – A Normandy veteran died after being abandoned on a hospital trolley for 19 hours – on two separate occasions. Walter Gibson, 86, suffered an agonising death from infected bedsores caused by his ordeal. Yesterday a coroner condemned the ‘gross failings’ and ‘neglect’ that contributed to the great-grandfather’s death.
Daily Mail – A mother-to-be has been turned down for free dental treatment – because the surgery will not accept that she is expecting. Sarah Luisis, 27, who is five months pregnant, has been told she needs to provide more proof that she has a baby on the way. That is despite the fact that she has a big bump, a doctor’s certificate, antenatal notes and ultrasound pictures of her unborn child.
(continued below)
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Daily Mail – A man who had broken his spine in two places was sent home from hospital on crutches – risking being paralysed. Peter Johnson was given strong pain killers by A&E medics and told to keep walking around – although he was in agonising pain and an X-ray showing he had fractured the lower part of his spine. A week later, still in agony, a second consultant spotted a further break and he was hospitalised for a week.
Daily Mail – A senior doctor faces an inquiry after an inquest ruled five patients on a hospital ward died after being given excessive doses of morphine. Dr Jane Barton was in charge of a ward known as the ‘end of the line’ where nearly 100 suspicious deaths were reported to police. Dozens of elderly patients died days after being admitted.
Daily Mail – A police officer who collapsed and died after giving birth to twins after staff shortages meant she had to wait for four days to be induced died of natural causes, a coroner ruled today. James and Hannah were delivered by emergency Caesarean just before PC Sarah Underhill died on Sunday, October 5, last year – four days after she had been admitted to hospital.
Daily Mail – Britain has not done enough to boost cancer survival rates and will fail to hit a target to match the success of other European countries by 2010, experts claimed yesterday. It is optimistic to expect the gap to be closed by the deadline because progress is too slow, according to medical journal The Lancet Oncology. At least £2billion extra was spent at the start of the Government’s Cancer Plan, rising to a total of £4.35billion in 2006/07 in England.
(continued below)
(continued from above)
Daily Mail – Dehydrated patients were forced to drink out of flower vases, while others were left in soiled linen on filthy wards. Relatives of patients who died at Staffordshire General Hospital told how they were so worried by the standard of care they slept in chairs on the wards. The commission’s report – revealed in yesterday’s Daily Mail – said at least 400 deaths could not be explained, although it is feared up to 1,200 patients may have died needlessly.
Daily Mail – Patients who leave operating theatres with surgical equipment accidentally left inside them are being awarded millions of pounds in compensation. About two people a week find surgeons have left behind foreign objects such as surgical swabs, clips and screws, according to Government figures released after a Freedom of Information request.
Daily Mail – An expectant mother of twins was ferried 250 miles between four hospitals only to have her babies separated as soon as they were delivered. Angela Breeds, 30, was told she needed a Caesarean section when doctors found one of her unborn babies was too small and not getting enough nutrition. But what should have been the most thrilling moment of her life turned into a five-day ordeal because the hospitals either did not have the right scanning equipment or the incubators.
Daily Mail – The scandal of widespread cutbacks in NHS care affecting thousands of Alzheimer’s patients is exposed today. Almost one in three health trusts admits axing vital services such as district nurses and day centres, leaving desperate families to struggle alone. Fewer than half are running clinics to spot early signs of Alzheimer’s despite soaring numbers of patients. And, most damningly, two in five trusts fail to provide any dementia services at all.
Alright, I’ll stop now. But I must jump onto another bug-bear of mine and one that I’m sure the leftist scum in America would also love to foist upon their fellow Americans. Not surprisingly, it’s also failed over in Britain, I have lots of examples like these too, but I’m tired and you get the picture.
Daily Mail – A chief constable has apologised personally to two student nurses who had to wait four hours for help after a gang of intruders threatened to rape them. Flatmates Amy Overend, 19, and Melissa Cooper, 22, barricaded themselves in their rooms and rang 999 when four men sneaked into their hospital accommodation shouting abuse. But when they called again after an hour they were told they were classed as a ‘ secondary emergency’ because they were behind locked doors. ……’As they were leaving, they said, ‘We are going to remember your faces and names, and next time, we are going to rape you’.
Is ALL of the above BS or somehow taken out of context?
Ray,
I don't think it's civilized that a hospital can bankrupt you because you lose your job and your insurance.
Then change the law!
My sister-in-law went bankrupt under those very circumstances while, at the same time, the illegal sharing the room with her walked debt-free.
In my view, viable health-insurance reform requires three elements:
1. tort reform (including malpractice reform and medical-bankruptcy reform
2. portability
3. elimination of pre-existing conditions as a way to hike premiums PROVIDED THAT the insured has carried health insurance for at least 10 years
I have a lot of experience with the health-care industry here in the States, from the family member's perspective. A few months back, Mr. AOW and I figured out that, between ourselves and our various employers, we've paid at least $1 million in health insurance premiums over the past 37 years. Yet, my husband's premium is doubled now because he has the dreaded pre-existing conditions. Next step for Mr. AOW may well be Social Security Disability, but the premiums are far from free on even that option.
Pastorius,
The poor people in our country all get free healthcare already. The idea that they don't is a lie.
Illegal aliens get free healthcare here.
Here's how they do it. They go to the Emergency room for everything, including when their children have colds.
Absolutely. Some hospitals have had to close because of the expense and the sheer numbers of patients.
Those avoiding health care here in the States are those who have assets. There is no way to shelter those assets from medical bankruptcy.
The poor people in our country all get free healthcare already. The idea that they don't is a lie
Just the illegals.
White folks? Forget it!
Whose idea was that anyway?
"The immediate goal is to make sure there are more people on private insurance plans. I mean, people have access to health care in America," he said. "After all, you just go to an emergency room."
(Bushki)
Quoting Bush-Klinton-Bush-Obama makes things easy..... but it's all nonsense.
Always On Watch:
You will probably find more bad news stories about US healthcare than the NHS. Any bad news about the NHS is immediately jumped on and corrected.
At least the NHS is equitable and it didn't cost me $1M in my working life AND I am covered for life - so what's the beef AOW?
This story about the Republicans slagging off our NHS is big on the media here and has provoked fury among people.
Leave us alone we are happy enough with our NHS and it IS better healthcare on the whole for the majority of the population.
AS for Epaminondas, I am sorry sir but you know diddly squat about British drug research. The Cancer Research Institute is a charity, massively supported by the public, and would not publish lies about it's achievments. Our medical research lag behind no one. Funding comes from the drug companies amongst others. The British universities & research charities have the brains and always did ever since penicillin was developed in the 1940's
Alexander Fleming may have discovered it in the 30's but he did not discover anything that could be of benefit until a team of scientists developed it.
Ray,
At least the NHS is equitable and it didn't cost me $1M in my working life AND I am covered for life - so what's the beef AOW?
I don't have any beef with the NHS.
What is your tax rate, if you don't mind saying? I've read that taxes are very high in the UK. If so, is that related to funding the NHS.
I do have another question for you: What is the malpractice-suits situation in the UK?
20% tax upto £37,400 pa ($62,000)
40% >£37,400.
Can't answer the last question right now but nothings perfect where human beings are involved.
Thanks for answering my question.
I assume that you're talking about income tax, as was I.
I understand that other taxes exist in the UK -- higher than in the States. Fuel tax, for example.
I know that docs make honest mistakes. I just wondered if suing was even a possibility under the medical-care system you have in the UK.
BTW, I am one who is not happy with my health-insurance plan and haven't been for a long, long time.
Also, I have never, as far as I know, pointed fingers at the NHS. I have heard some good things about that system.
Ray so sorry .. but our entire living was built on cardiac research.
Our entire corp was built on it.
You can say I know nothing all you want, but I can tell you for a fact .. there's nothing of value to those who want to make a profit to develop MORE RESULTS TO MAKE A PROFIT TO DEVELOP MORE RESULTS.
CHARITY is no way to fund medical a research as a primary source.
"would not publish lies about it's achievments"
GLOBAL WARMING ANYONE?
There is NO SUBSTITUTE for making things for a profit. There is NOTHING BETTER for society, the same goes for research. The aim HAS to be to develop all this for a profit.
A is A
AoW .. pre existing conditions indeed .. that's why it's so important to ensure that a policy available in New Mexico is available in Vermont and vice versa
There is one other GIANT LIE of the Obamanoids ... that is that prevention or early detection will necessarily save money.
Example...breast cancer or any cancer.
You go the doc in 1980 there's something suspicious, they do an xray..nothing. Cat scan ..nothing. Ultrasound nothing.
Today the resolution of ALL THESE imaging techniques is so fine that they can see cancerous lymph nodes at 2mm OR LESS and recommend surgery.
They get it early, but it's still surgery ..does it save?
Not if they see it again microscopically two or three years later, which is how it plays out.
And if you are 80?
SOCIALIZED DECISIONS FOR THE GOOD OF "SOCIETY":
"Unlike allocation by sex or race, allocation by age is not invidious discrimination; every person lives through different life stages rather than being a single age. Even if 25-year-olds receive priority over 65-year-olds, everyone who is 65 years now was previously 25 years.Treating 65-year olds differently because of stereotypes or falsehoods would be ageist; treating them differently because they have already had more life-years is not."
Ezekiel Emanuel on Bioethics
Epaminondas:
it seems you know all the answers so there is no point in discussing further. Just follow the linkm and see what Cancer Research has done. My facts are my facts and you can not detract from them. End.
AOW:
Sorry, I thought you were having a go at the NHS when you quote the failings of the NHS over several comments.
It seems that US and UK tort law are related so while the US medical negligence claims are at crisis point the UK claims are catching up, although trailing behind.
As for taxes we do pay about 5% National Insurance contributions - the employer pays 10% approx. This covers us for health, unemployment benefits and pension. Then there is VAT of 15% on goods and services. Oh and high duty on alcohol, tobacco and petrol, diesel.
Ray,
I thought you were having a go at the NHS when you quote the failings of the NHS over several comments.
I was just copying and pasting something I read yesterday on the web.
Horror stories about the NHS abound. The horror stories about American health care are usually not as discussed because the docs and hospitals settle out of court; in such cases, no details are allowed to be divulged.
Ray,
Thanks for the added info about taxes. I can see why some of my UK friends talk about high rates.
Michael,
When did you work in the UK health system, and in what capacity?
Same question for the US?
I'm having a hard time believing that.
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