Sarah and Amina Yaser Said - It is alleged that they were murdered by their Father in an Honor Killing
Pamela posted on Honor Killings today, saying she had seen a female "expert" on Fox News commenting that Honor Killings are not Islamic.
I left the following comment:
There is a woman named Ellen Sheeley who goes around and comments on almost
every blog post on Honor Killings. Ellen wrote a book on Honor Killings. And,
while I admire her for the fact that she was willing to sacrifice her own career
to study the phenomenon, I do not at all appreciate the fact that she commonly
propagates the myth that Honor Killings have nothing to do with Islam.
I wonder if she was the "specialist" you saw on Fox.
It's interesting how easily good intentions can turn bad when a person
does not have a total commitment to truth.
Here is
PROOF
FEMALE GENITAL MUTILATIONAND HONOR KILLINGS ARE PART OF ISLAMAND ARE NOT
CULTURALLY-BASED PHENOMENA
Take heed, Ellen Sheeley, and please stop
promoting myths.
If the person says they did it for Islam, then they did. Women are
chattel (property) in Islam (according to Islamic law). If they misbehave, then
men can do with them what they want. They are fields to be ploughed.
Ellen replied:
Pastorius, that is not what I'm saying. Dishonor killings are pre-Islamic
and un-Islamic, but there is a connection, and I document it in my book. There's
a correlation, but correlation doesn't mean causality, in statistical
terms.
Also, just empirically, if you put a pin on a map for every known
dishonor killing case for a year, a very clear pattern would emerge. To deny it
is to be in reality avoidance.
Ellen R. Sheeley, Author"Reclaiming Honor in Jordan"
http://www.redroom.com/author/ellen-r-sheeley
To which, I have replied:
One of the things that irritates me about Ellen Sheeley is that she drops in (as I said, in almost every post about Honor Killings, as is once again evidenced here), makes a comment, and then never answers my questions.
She has commented at my site many times, and never once answered a question.
But, I'll try again, just for the fun of it.
Ellen, what do you think of my contention that the recent UNSC ruling - that any discussion of Honor Killings or FGM has to be done by a Muslim cleric - is proof that Honor Killing is consider, BY MUSLIMS, to be a religious act in the name of Allah?
Here's another question for Ellen Sheeley:
Are suicide bombings Islamic? They, also, are not in the Krayon. But their logic is.
Right?
Just as is the logic of Honor Killings.
I eagerly await Ellen Sheeley's answer.
13 comments:
"correlation doesn't mean causality"
What is it with this phrase? I am starting to see it pop up in responses all around. The people using the phrase are all defending (or letting off easy) the muslims. When we have 25 honor killings by Baptists and none by muslims, I'll say it isn't islam.
I've linked your blog with some others on the WAMI blog,
Women Against Misogynist Imperialism.
I am a radical feminist [not by the western definition] and independent leftist--years in the far left and know very well the psychology of the totalitarian bullshit in bed with Islam,
you see I nearly married into Islam, I once was one of those 'duped' for a short time, cultural relativists, and it was Muslim women, TRAPPED IN THAT HELL, who saved my ass, long story,
but I confronted the perverts and relativists and pedophile pushers in far left and trafficker of women lovers in far left who love the opiate--the LEFT HOAX is what I term them, and I was eventually 'purged' from the party.
I speak out now, been exiled from about [or almost] every damn 'duped and stupified' feminist board out there--which now I'm quite proud of--the usual course of action is they discredit me as 'crazy', the 'hysterical' one...that is so characteristic of the left...especially when they cannot back up their arguments because their arguments are not only bathed in fallacy, they are in dire conflict with the very principles they so love to proclaim and therefore they have no choice to to rationalize away their cognitive dissonance through the use of distorted self-determination of culture logic. [influenced by none other than Stalinism]
let me assure you, the whole correlation doesn't mean causality is the typical BULLSHIT spewed out by the relativists, after all, it Is their utility of 'myth' they so love to hang onto dearly,
while women such as Ellen prime their own daughters [biological or social] to be sold as fodder to the Witch Hunting Dark Ages Moonbats they so adore and romanticize.
Their 'correlation' they base on the comparisons between Honor Killings and Domestic Violence in the west--but there are some specific differences,
one the most obvious, the sanctioning of the Islamic State--theocracy backed by the political barrel of the gun--and of course, ordained by none other than the Quran and the Hadiths and Sharia. To that the relativist 'cultists' will contest, like cult members who swear to the leader's loyalty to all 300 of their child wives. [sarcasm]
And of course these women have the backing of the cowardice of the western feminists/neo-liberals who in THEIR RACISM AND XENOPHOBIA refuse to call a spade a spade,
after all, why confront 'that culture' 'those dark people' and 'those uncivilized barbarians', because to Do so would mean they might be 'human' such as us civilized white society and if that is the case and they truly do not assent to such medieval treatment then they might arise into the age of enlightenment, that consciousness of the world is not flat and join the rest of the world--oh,
but we don't want that, its much more Superior if we remain here, continually expressing our 'agreement' to their enslavement and after all, its So much easier to travel to those 'exotic' places and enjoy the fruits of slavery if we so align with the pyramid of the Islamic infrastructure, especially those concubine slaves gifts, be they their own slaves or 'trafficked infidel slaves, including small children. [why the elites love them so--it gives them sanctioned 'permissions']
If however, it was a majority of white women suffering honor killings and fgms and forced marriages well,
That would be the spark for a brutal uproar by the western 'left', after all, don't we know,
white women are special, such barbaric treatment is not put up with here, and Why it is so easy to confront the theocracy of the Christian-Judaic heritage in the west--the soft oppressor of 'white women'.
Please, their level of hypocrisy is so apparent that even Joseph Conrad would see through their racist pretense.
The difference between honor killings and domestic violence is this,
domestic violence, as misogynist as it is, one is not sanctioned by the state, while yes, for centuries it was within the legal system a crime that was deemed as strictly a 'civil' matter it was never specifically sanctioned in the ORDERING OF SUCH VIOLENCE, ESPECIALLY MURDER OF WOMEN by the arm of the STATE an entitlement of men, at least not since the Dark Ages and Days of Religious Rule in the West, though granted the arm of 'discipline' of women was tolerated for long periods even until the 70s within the west, but it was never Ordered by the STATE as a means of control over women. Socially it may have been, but not politically, even within early Colonial America there were Laws restricting of forbidding domestic violence, they may not have been enforced or even concurred with, but they were on the books. This is not to say misogyny and the assent and social tolerance to does not exist in Western society, there is far too much evidence proving other wise,
however, in the case of Honor Killings, it isn't simply a matter of 'civil disputes' between man and woman. It is the carrying out of the arm of the State through the arm of the Male infrastructure,
husband, brother, father, uncle, cousin, male neighbor, policeman, clerics, mullahs, and Islamic politicians. Honor Killings are also assisted by some women as well.
This is why in Islamic republics and nations honor killings are not prosecuted, they are not just mere matters of crimes of passion,
no, they are Islamic ordained social controls to keep women and girls subjugated not only to the intimacy of one man, or to family,
but to the DICTATES OF ISLAM WITH THE BACKING OF THE ISLAMIC STATE to enforce obedience of every female through the use of
personal and intimate terror within the most intimate of 'space'.
For Any woman to assert that Honor Killings are not the arm of Islamic social controls is an oxymoron if there ever was one. The so called 'dishonor' brought onto the family when women assert their most basic of human rights is not only a matter of shame brought onto the family for deviating from the 'male' but from
deviating from the constructed role that Islam and backed by the state has ordained on her head. It is a daily Fatwa of terror, a reminder, that if she dare deviates from such,
she shall be swiftly punished, not through a court or through the institutionalized penal process, no,
but through the policing, that police power, sanctioned and blessed, upon the male members of her entire family and community.
No where, in any part of the West, is domestic violence Even on this level of jurisprudence.
Honor Killings in Islam, it is.
It is therefore not so much the issue of 'shame on the family' as much as it is 'shame on the image of Islam'.
And for that crime, it is according to the duty of all those who bow to Islam to maintain that strict rule of order of subjugation and submission through the use of personal terror,
against women and using the police power of the males within the family structure, do to so, with Total impunity, and Total blessing,
from the Islamic STATE.
It is not simply a social culture or descendant misogyny from the old world of patriarchs, i.e., Old Testament as some would in their stupor lay claim to, though we have those social mores in some that continue to manifest such misogyny and terror against women through violence and rape as a means of terror in Western society,
on that I concur, however, there is a huge difference, between a cultural and/or traditional misogynist more that is still to this day challenged and confronted,
and that of a theocratic ordained and sanctioned medieval practice, that terror, that is not only socially assented within Islamic communities to but is through the blessing and protection of the Islamic State and Clerical Judicial System, not only the manifestation of barbaric misogyny but the Enforcement of such, through the Policing Arm of Terror in the most intimate lives of women,
policed by their very own male kin.
Honor Killing is an Islamic State action, whether in their republics or no, that is a matter of Islamic jurisprudence and policing of women that has No legitamate (sic) power in the west and therefore, is not only a violation of Western jurisprudence,
it is an usurpation of Islamic law and Islamic State within and against Western Democracies and should in no way,
be tolerated or condoned. And for those women and feverish liberals and far leftists who pander to such out of their hedonism,
are not only enemies of human rights, they are enemies of the very reformations and progressions and civil rights in This country and in the west, reactionaries against the enlightenment who seek to take us all back into
the Dark Ages, they are, the Black Plague to Progressives [including to Marxism, the ideal was to move forwards, not back to cave man epoch] and to all of Humanity, especially to women and children.
WAMI
Women Against Misogynist Imperialism
http://wami-womenagainstmaleimperialism.blogspot.com/
Natashsa,
Sounds like you have had some similar experiences as Phyllis Chesler. I'm guessing you are familiar with her. If not, you should google her, and get aquainted. She was, also, basically purged from the feminist movement because of her opposition to radical Islam.
Samenokami and Natasha,
To be fair to Ellen Sheeley, while I think her use of the phrase "correlation does not mean causality" is a kind of dodge, I think she backs it up with a truth.
And, that truth is this:
If one defines Islam by what is in the Koran, then Honor Killings are not Islamic.
That's her point.
However, if one defines Islam by what Muslims say Islam is, then Honor Killing are Islamic.
And that is my point.
That's why I asked her to address the use of Suicide Bombings. They also are not in the Koran, nor are they absolutely unique to Muslims, but the tactic of Suicide Bombings is used by Muslims on a constant basis. And, most of all, the tactic of Suicide Bombings is sanctioned by a huge portion of Muslim clerics. They call it resistance.
The fact of the matter is, Honor Killings are even more Islamic than Suicide Bombings. There are many more Honor Killings in the name of Allah than there are Suicide Bombings.
I also have to be fair to Ellen Sheeley and explain that she is not a blinded radical feminist.
She is, instead, a very brave woman who put her own physical and economic life on the line to go to Jordan and study Honor Killings.
She is, on the whole, far more intellectually honest than 95% of the Western world's intelligentsia, when it comes to the reality of Islam.
The reason I am so hard on her is because, as an expert, she is even more dangerous than are most of those in the intelligentsia who have no real knowledge or expertise when it comes to Islam.
In addition,
something to consider...its interesting, how those who attest to the notion that misogyny by the arm of Law and Clerical Fascism is not an Islamic characteristic, but is a cultural 'adapted' to tradition',
are often those who work within the financial public relations on international level. From a perspective contrary to the goals of global capitalism,
I am extremely wary of any with international 'economic or financial' incentives who work to project this kind Islam that is only tainted with misogynist traditions by no fault or conscious decision of their own.
Its typical bourgeoisie manipulation and public relations hogwash. And I think the bottom line is this,
if honor killings was simply a cultural practice, then why hasn't it been legally overturned by the very Islamists who so claim it has nothing to do with Islam?
And here is where you need a shovel the size of Texas to weed through that logic of bullshit,
IF honor killings and FGMs were Only cultural practices from primitive antiquity, then How is it, that in the most militant of systems that police every aspect of conduct through the arm of the Islamic State with such diligence that they can subjugate the citizenry on so many levels yet they cannot eradicate practices that have outlived their time?
Or is it, in all honesty, that they simply choose NOT to eradicate these barbaric and extreme misogynist practices because these practices are a precise utility to enforce the rule of terror over women which perpetuates the fear that forces internalized compliance onto every single female born within each new generation?
Therefore, if they so choose to not eradicate then yes, it Is an Islamic practice, it does not matter if its a cultural 'habit' that was traditionally from the southern cone, the Fact that they continue to utilize and protect, even through the forced censorship against those who protest such inhumane acts, such barbaric horrors is testament to the fact that the Islamic states and Laws that rule by,
have by choice, given their blessing on both FGMs [female castration--because That is exactly what it is, the equivalent of cutting off a man's penis, at least partially] and on the slaughter of girls and women who defy the rules of Islam under the title of Islamic Honor Killing, and in choosing to protect or trivialize such barbarism against women the Islamic state has assented to the consuetude [habit or custom made into law] of such barbarism.
In other words, its a form of distorted justification to argue whether or not its an Islamic practice or not, the Fact that its occurring in large numbers and with daily frequency is enough to not only to confront but to demand that it end, no exceptions period and if the Islamist state can show that they have that much power over their citizenry to enforce religious ordinances through out their nation-states then there is absolutely no excuse whatsoever that they cannot eradicate the barbaric practices that are simply just
hereditary habits. For any public relations for either financial or diplomatic reason to project these human right abuses as such is simply just a means of putting on some 'kind face' on cruel and inhumane violations of human rights and to instill this type of tolerance to such. And nine out of ten, its simply to perpetuate the international acceptance and tolerance to such for financial gain/via free trade.
And That is the bottom line...doing whatever manipulation is available to condition the world's citizens to tolerate such barbarism because its financially beneficial to some, that use of public relations to desensitize the world to the most cruelest and painful of forced inflicted suffering on unwilling and Non-Consensual victims so that no one cringes when trade is open and to do so with distorting facts.
There should be Zero Tolerance for slavery, barbarism, torture, gender segregation and barbaric and cruel punishment metered out on girls and women simply because
they are of the female gender,
whether its custom or no, doesn't matter. The Fact that the Islamic states by majority in the world continue to tolerate these cruel and excruciating and long term abuses on women is evidence that yes,
it Is a tool of oppression sanctioned none other than by Islam. And for any woman to attempt to soften this reality, to form a friendly appearance to such barbarism is to insult the human integrity and human rights of every girl and woman in the world.
It is the ultimate disgrace and injury to insult to womankind. And any attempt to portray a friendly face to such allowances for whatever reason to such barbarism and human rights abuses,
should be ultimately REJECTED. And any financial institution or corporation that condones these types of human right violations of women should be boycotted and rejected because there is no justifiable reason to allow or condone or to tolerate financial benefits from the excusing of such legalized sanctioned/or protected abuses.
None whatsoever---and that truly is the bottom line here--financial gain by desensitization and excusing human right abuses and especially those to women and girls.
WAMI
Women Against Misogynist Imperialism
I included the latter, I don't think its coincidental that Elle has background in
psychology, marketing using psychology, and financial marketing.
I am not acquainted with her work but I will look into it,
but because my background has been from the left working against the global economic exploitation of women and workers I am extremely skeptical of any with ties to the financial aspect, Especially marketing, [which is a book to itself, Milgram's experiment put to wise use to create a global hegemony of slavery no less].
One example I'll give you, because I will expand on this analysis on the WAMI blog, is,
one of the main problems with, for example, micro loans to women's NGOs in Balkans, is that the majority of these small businesses by women fail within the first year in the Balkans region, as you know the levels of poverty and blackmarket economy [trafficking, organ sales, prostitution] is extremely high. Many of these so called micro loan investment corps from the West loaded upon vulnerable women, especially those in patriarchal communities or survivors of ethnic/nationalist wars, these loans within a frail economic infrastructure with deep levels of corruption,
then they pulled out,leaving these women in even worse conditions, stripped local economies and then added 'debt'.
I'm not sure if you are aware but the same types of micro programs are going on in Jordan and in Middle East and in Muslim migrant communities all over Europe for women, they sound good on paper,
but they create wealth for the Islamic State for one, because of the patriarchal protections/and the laws in regards to women in Sharia finance,
that, and the market that is exploiting these women and workers in the textiles and fashion industries, in fact one of the new agreements within the textile industry is to take advantage of the impoverished women in the most extreme misogynist of places, North Africa, for labor,
so it is also for this reason that I am very skeptical of so called 'friendly Islam' projections, especially by any with ties to the financial and/or marketing industrial complex because of the economic realities and exploitation of these women--that is felt/throughout the world to all women workers,
including here in the states. The creation and establishing of more and more feminization of poverty, and the best means to do that is to pander to none other than Theocratic states that enforce by terror the misogynist abuses onto women AND to workers.
On the WAMI blog there are two ongoing studies, one on the expanding of totalitarianism on a global level and two,
on the development going on in Middle East, Dubai one of the best examples, and the other economy, the subjugated economy that is propping the wealth of the Jihad world up,
slavery.
Slavery and trafficking, supported by none other than the wealthy elite of the west--both right and left.
And kid yourself not, the socialists are a huge part of the investing sector.
Corporatist capitalism with centralized 'state' control which is fitting with the Islamist Sharia control of economy--why they have so much in common and why they are allies,
not to defeat western imperialism to free anyone, hell no,
to establish a far worse economic and theocratic imperialism that will guarantee the central ownership of resources and labor/economy over every nation state--
that will insist upon destroying individual rights [and in essence women's human rights, feminism with autonomy outside of male polemic is in conflict with Marxism/Socialism and with that--so is Worker's rights/autonomy--the flaw that was so cleverly masked--good on paper but not in practicality because it was still that Euro-centric hierarchy of 'elitism'] and therefore women's rights was never truly sustainable within such systems,
nor was worker's rights, as historical has shown evident--
although I do not believe in the 'timeframe' of Marx that was the goal--taking into consideration the epoch/conditions of that time, or Lenin's, in other words good ideas but severely flawed with absolutism--
why relevant today? Because its the ideology that is the cult de force between the alliances between the left and with Islam, with a mixture of national socialist fascism [both clerical and dynamic],
and its tied into the global hegemony of capital--why they are pushing for Sharia banking--in other words,
look at development in Dubai--its not just bad Islam--its a bedding of three tiered forces,
think Stalin--and Hitler's economies combined [or Chavez's national economy] with Sharia--on a global scale,
and then throw in Mosca's 'elite' factor,
there you go. Its not just soft jihad for Islam, its soft jihad to establish a global order of world wide slavery--
interdependent economies--developing nations with more worker unrest--rise of middle class and GDPs in China/India for example,
think macro--its soon to bust at the seams,
and the far left aligned with the Islamists because what better means to set up those five year global plans that to do so with one of the most powerful and totalitarian forces of opiate there is known to the history of mankind?
But its not just the far left--look at Who is invested in both Iran, Saudi and Dubai--super growth GDPs,
the wealth in Sudan [North},
add it up. And then--look at the strategy of marketing,
nothing, that comes out of the soft jihad and manipulation/utility of 'myth' [Sorel] surprises me in this day and age,
but there is far more to it, than just religion. Far more...
I am aware of Chesler and have read her works, I do have a similar background in regards to intimate knowledge [though my time was brief compared to hers] with Islam, but I differ in that I also came from a leftist lens from working from the underclass perspective--and witnessed the dynamics within the left over the past fifteen years or so,
what is unknown to many, is how the left in itself, has drastically changed within the west--infiltrated by nationalist -Stalinist leftists or by this form of internationalists combined with that progressive cultural relativism--which ever worked, put it that way,
and any who were [in the west] truly for worker's rights, women's rights, glbt rights, children's rights, human rights,
were pretty much purged, in a political form, from the parties...the left today, is such a Hoax its not even funny, and its a dangerous one at that.
Its no coincidence that the left in Russia for example, is both Nazi ideology combined with Leninism, with leaders converted over to Islam,
the same thing with the left--Obama and Odinga,
is one fact, that the progressives and left in the west have done all in their power to shut up. Keep an eye of what is going on in Kenya, in fact you did excellent post on this fact,
its amazing how much the political rhetoric of 'change' is identical between Obama and Odinga,
and why the far left--camp, is behind it, behind him and the Islamists--and its in the feminist camp too.
And believe me when I say this--its a banality of evil on a level that is far more sinister than WWII.
On that, I promise you. What is So dangerous about it, this banality of evil,
is that its not only a Trojan Horse, its one with an extremely manipulative and deceptive friendly fascist face...and the horror is
how many, right and left, have sold their souls to it, hook line and sinker. By the time they realize--it may be too late.
I testify to this, not because I believe in conspiracy theories, but because I witnessed how it was working in the far left, over the past three, well five years,
it was at full speed. Here in the west [America],
even a large segment of anarchists [nihilists] have been sucked up into the lies,
be diligent, keep confronting, never cease. I am convinced, no shadow of a doubt, humanity is at stake,
not just the west, but throughout the world. Hannah Arendt stated something very important, in "On Revolution",
why the absolutists, the Robespierres (sic) of the world want the destruction of Israel and the West/the philosophy of Christianity and Judaism especially,
remove those ethical sources, what do you have remaining?
Not human rights, not human rights or the ethics and/or philosophies that support those rights.
Why Islam hates the West, with a violent obsession. I tell people, look at Muhammad not in a religious way--look at him, as a military strategist,
and expansionist. Because the Stalinists and global imperialists/despots of the world today, damn sure are...
Natasha
WAMI
Here, this is one if NOT the best truth telling,
on why Yes, honor killings Is all about Islam,
from a woman, who knows. And she addresses the 'white woman who says it is just culture',
and she brings to light some things that aren't even considered in the west...
its a must read for any who really want the truth.
http://apostate.wordpress.com/2008/07/02/why-honor-killings-are-a-religious-issue/
"There's
a correlation, but correlation doesn't mean causality, in statistical
terms."
LOL
LOL LOL LOL
That would be hilarious if it wasn't so tragic!
There's a correlation between sex and childbirth but that doesn't mean sex causes childbirth. LOL
It's a statistical phrase, not an evasion. . .there is a correlation between the rooster crowing and the sun coming up, but the rooster doesn't cause the sun to come up.
Anonymous,
I realize it is a statistical phrase. Do you think statistical phrases are applicable when one is discussing the religious origins of certain moral behaviors?
Natasha is great. I love reading her comments. And, her blog kicks ass too. I don't share her affection for Lenin, but that's a different subject.
Post a Comment