Thursday, February 26, 2009

BNP Culturist or Racist?



Is the BNP racist or culturist? As a western culturist, I have long wondered about the BNP. But, as a culturist, I also know that it is hard to understand a movement unless you are a part of the culture that it lives in. So, though I see stuff on line, I cannot tell who the average BNP member is or what they really believe in.

I do know that the BNP followers I have come across largely understand the threat that Islam presents to western civilization. They are culturists. They reject multiculturalism because it tells them that Britain – and the West – do not have core cultures to protect, guide and promote; they are culturist. And, as they don’t buy multiculturalism, and culturism is the opposite of multiculturalism, they are culturists.

From what little of the BNP I know of, I have given them the benefit of the doubt and considered them culturist allies who, unfortunately, do not yet use the word. I INSTINCTIVELY do not believe the multiculturalists when they slander someone as racist. Here in the US it is used against anyone who would talk about immigration reform. But immigration concerns aren't about race, they are about culture. If multiculturalists call you racist, it is just because you’re pointing out that diversity is real and it is important.

Why am I hung up on the difference? Because racism is stupid and dangerous, whereas culturism is rational and productive. Racism also provides no good policy objectives. People cannot change their skin color. The idea of a purge is ridiculous and would lead to civil war and destabilize a western nation. It would undermine, not protect our rights. Racist thought leads nowhere.

Culturists have solutions based on the idea that Britain or whatever western nation we’re discussing, has a core culture and a right to protect it. For example, in sticking up for the West, you can stop the building of mosques by foreign governments and that can change attitudes. Sharia courts can be disbanned in Britain because they are not British. Culturism highlights why British schools should not spend their time teaching of the glory of hostile cultures. Also culturism can use the reality of cultural diversity to have police monitor those who go to radical mosques. This is not racial profiling it is culturist profiling. Again, racism is stupid and dangerous. But Culturism provides for intelligent policy based on the importance of culture.

I agree with the BNP on one crucial issue. We must stop Islamic immigration. Of course, the liberal multicultualists say this is racist. It is not, it is culturist. As a culturist I believe that Hindus make better western citizens than Muslims. That is obviously not racist, it is culturist. Were the BNP advocating it for racists reasons, again, the platform of excluding Islamic immigration would carry lots of other terrible implications along with it. I would not support a racist platform or party. But I do and would support a culturist platform and party.

So the question is, again, is the BNP racist or culturist?

56 comments:

Anonymous said...

'Any port in a storm'

Ray Boyd said...

As a Brit I am merely observing the BNP. They are smeared and vilified by the lefties and the media and this immediately makes me supportive.

Dragging out racist quotes from the past is a typical smear tactic. Labour re-invented itself, the Conservatives are doing the same. I see no reason why the BNP cannot re-invent itself also.

At the end of the day would I rather live in a sharia led Islamic state or a BNP state that supports my culture? It's a no brainer isn't it?

Incidentally, I seem to be on a BNP mailing list and they are using Obama style tactics to raise funds. Also they run campaigns where they urge recipients to e-mail and lobby various people/groups. This is achieving some success.

As an example of that Sandwell Local Council banned a St Georges Day parade this year. The BNP urged us to e-mail the council protesting. This I did along with 10,000 others. The council has backed down and has relented.

I re-iterate, I am not a member of the BNP I just got onto their mailing list by mistake. Maybe I left a comment on their website, however I do find their tactics interesting and quite impressive.

Just Cause said...

CJ, I think the honest answer is probably that they started off being racist to tap into that tide of feeling in the early 80's in Britain because things were changing and non-whites were seen as the reason. Over time and especially in the last 10 years I suspect they have realised that race really isn't the problem in Britain, it's multiculturalism.

They can't escape the fact that the majority of Blacks in this country are now 3 or 4 generations away from their forefathers who came from across the empire after World War 2 to meet our needs in the Labour market and consider themselves British as they are. The racist backlash to the immigration was much more to do with racial prejudice than in response to them trying to impose their culture on us, which they didn't.

The BNP have probably realised that keeping the race argument alive was on a hiding to nothing because the majority of people in Britain couldn't give a monkeys. Whilst they would never admit it (or probably even recognise it) the BBC and other leftard groups are keeping the race flame alive by going out their way to providing for them - in Britain we have BBC 1Xtra which is dedicated to black music, we have the National Black Police Association etc etc.

Back to the BNP, you can't ignore their racist past but you also can't condemn them if they have realised the error of their ways, they at least deserve some level of magnamity. They certainly do have the jihad threat absolutely nailed which leads me to deduce they've realised that culture over race is more important and certainly more pressing an issue.

I think you might be surprised about their demographic mix of voters but not at the reason why a large number of regular johns are also joining their ranks because they simply offer to protect our culture like none of the other main parties are willing to.

Salford in Manchester is a hotbed at the moment because of a recent change to social housing policy that prioritises need over everything else, including family and working commitments in the area thus immigrants from Poland are walking into houses because they have nothing whilst the local population are put to the back of the queue. It's this kind of treatment that the regular joe is sick of and naturally they will turn to the people who have promised to do something about it.

As I've said before, I don't think they'll get into power but they'll definitely secure enough votes to scare the other parties into action. In my mind, the ideal scenario at the next general election is for labour to be humiliated and with BNP gaining ebough seats and enter into some sort of power sharing government between the Conservatives and BNP.

What I do know is that if something doesn't happen soon, say within the next couple of years and especially with the economic climate, we have near perfect storm conditions for civil war. The vast majority of people I speak to (including clients who bring up the subject and those who I would never credit as following politics) are so angry with what's happening. If the tipping point is another terrorist attack in Britain and then I think you are going to see some hardcore retribution against Muslims, especially the Mosques/hater Imams. The difference between now and 7/7 is that people are angry that the financial bubble has burst and are having to face some very ugly truths about who the government has been courting. Back then the going was good, people were too wrapped up in their own lives to care. Not now.

Just Cause said...

Ray, no need to renounce any link to the BNP. Over the last 6 months I've been honing my skills arguing with lefties and I started off protesting that my stance wasn't racist, islamophobic etc which immediately gives them an 'in' to arguing that you can't be convinced of what you believe if you are having to apologise.

Now, I've stopped apologising. If they accuse me of being racist I'll immediately counter with 'well, if wanting to protect my country and my family from terrorist dogma is racist then fine, i'm a racist' - the admission is too shocking for their tiny minds to comprehend as they've been conditioned to fear this tag above everything else, even if it means lying and denying the truth that's staring them in the face (or blowing our country to pieces!). I've won lots more arguments since I've stopped apologising.

Epaminondas said...

"Dragging out racist quotes from the past is a typical smear tactic"

History is not a smear.

Let the organization DENOUNCE it's formative ideas, excoriate such policies, and THROW OUT every member with such public ideas ..let them do what William Buckley did with the american conservative movement in the 1950's..until then.. just like Israel and the Palestinians...

THERE
REALLY
IS
LITTLE
TO
DISCUSS

I mean, what evil has the KKK done lately? I mean hey, the CofCC is just for american cultural values, right?

What a farce!

Anonymous said...

No political party other than the BNP can do anything to stop the Islamic take over of Britain, for the reasons outlined in 'Political Paralysis in the face of Islamic aggression' at the RoP Index.

There is a continual smear campaign against the BNP by the full force of the Establishment, including the government, the Tories, the Lib-Dhims, the Church of England, the BBC and most of the press. Obama's publicity machine, Blue State Digital, have been hired to run the online anti-BNP campaign.

However, these smear attacks must be well down the diminishing returns curve by now. Any possible BNP supporters who are so gullible as to fall for this stuff will long since have gone, whereas the rest will be immune to the propaganda.

If the LibLabCon, BBC, etc aren't careful, their efforts might become counterproductive by arousing the 'cussedness factor', where people not normally interested in politics will vote BNP just for the hell of it, because nanny-state keeps telling them not to.

Similarly, the involvment of BSD will be counterproductive, because this will be seen as foreign meddling in British politics.

Unknown said...

Just Cause,

Thanks for the in depth reply. Why did the council try to cancel St. George's Day? Did it offend muslims?

Also, I think it would be a good recruiting tool if you told them you are culturist. Then you could confront them with facts about diversity.

My concern is that the dynamic you speak of is dangerous. That is, people just snap and say, "OK I am racist!" Then you end up marginalized and extreme. If that reaction happens widely there is no room for reconciliation. As I said purge and civil unrest (unproductive) becomes the only option.

EPAMINONDAS,

I have thought the same argument. I never bought the kinder gentler KKK argument. The name is too associated with terror. To disassociate you cannot be a klansman.

But is the history of the BNP so clearly egregious and violent that the image of reform could not be accepted? If it is just a matter of choosing quotes from a leader like they tried to do with Ron Paul here, it could be a smear.

THANKS FOR THE CLARIFICATIONS!!

Unknown said...

Anonymous,

Sorry for my ignorance, but what is the "BSD?"

And as for immunity to the racist smear, let me suggest that identifying as "culturist" might make people less afraid to be involved. And the media would have to be more thoughtful when smearing people as culturists.

The tactic is free and could shift or stir debate. Of course, they will try "culturism" = "racism." But that seems easily defeated and anyhow, media will then have to address the impact of culture.

Always On Watch said...

I wasn't going to comment here (troubles here at home, so I've been laying off blogging), but I can't, in good conscience, ignore this thread, turn off my computer and just trundle off to work.

Just Cause said, you can't ignore their racist past but you also can't condemn them if they have realised the error of their ways.

As Epa pointed out, the BNP has not renounced its racist past.

Now, as I understand the situtation with political parties in the UK, the BNP is the only one to take a stand against Islamification. Even the Conservative Party is wimpy.

But how much of that stand is based on the immigration issue as opposed to real culturist and ideological conflicts, i.e., "We can't have Moslems among us because they are 'the other'" based on ethnicity? I see the proverbial slippery slope here. Does anyone else?

Clarification: I fully understand why some in the UK support the BNP out of necessity and are not themselves racists. BUT how many in the United States would support David Duke were the problems here in the States like those presently in the UK?

Always On Watch said...

Ray,
Dragging out racist quotes from the past is a typical smear tactic. Labour re-invented itself, the Conservatives are doing the same. I see no reason why the BNP cannot re-invent itself also.

My concern on this side of the Pond: Has real re-invention actually occurred?

kevin said...

The BNP is racist. It may have some naive followers who don't understand what they're getting into, but the BNP was founded on the principal of fascism, and is inherently racist, and is still run by it's Nazi leader Nick Griffin.

In April 2001 Griffin spoke to the American Friends of the BNP. He said, "So, what are we now doing with the British National Party? Well we tried to simplify its message in some ways and to make it a saleable message. So it's not white supremacy or racial civil war or anything like that, which is what we know in fact is going on, and we're not supremacists, we're white survivalists, even that frightens people. Four apple pie words, freedom, security, identity and democracy."

http://amboytimes.typepad.com/the_amboy_times/2008/01/lionheart-lgf-a.html

Griffin is a Nazi pos, period.

Unknown said...

Kevin,

That Amboy Times article is very damning. Thanks for the info.

AOW,

I hope the home life problems get resolved. Your query about whether or not I'd support David Duke is a good one. The situation would have to be very far gone for me to back someone who'd want me killed. I am altruistic for America, but . . . And it sounds like the analogy to Griffin is pretty darn accurate.

But one complication! If the BNP is so pro-white, why not encourage Polish immigration. They'll largely assimilate in a generation. Refusing them seems to go against the idea that the BNP is about white solidarity. That is, unless they are so Anglo-centric that they do not even want other "white" Europeans around.

Unknown said...

I also just read that the BNP has Jewish Councillors and a Jewish Treasurer. Hmmnn.

Epaminondas said...

John, Jews also kept the 'peace' in the Warsaw Ghetto.

It's a meaningless argument. Don't fall for that.

Any success the BNP enjoys is because Britain's mainline parties are abject failures.

That does not justify their existence.

It's Europe. We are here for a reason. We are REFUGEES from Europe's way.

Always On Watch said...

Kevin,
Thanks for posting that link. I see that I left a lengthy comment there.

Apparently, in some circles I am no longer welcome because I supported Lionheart's right to freedom of speech while, at the same time taking a stand against the BNP.

Anonymous said...

Yes its true, the Joooooooooooooz control the BNP like everything else!!!!!

http://ummahpulse.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=179&ac=0

http://www.somethingjewish.co.uk/articles/1009_bnp_jewish_win.htm

http://www.think-israel.org/locke.bnp.html


Grrr!!!!!!

Unknown said...

AOW,

I read your comment there. Your position seems reasonable and principled. Very Patrick Henry.

EPAMINONDAS,

I posted this video on youtube. And a vocal BNP person has informed me that he is not racist. Perhaps he is lying.

But it makes me wonder about how we categorize the BNP. If the membership is largely not racist and the leadership is racist, what is the party? Obviously if the leadership said racist things, it would cause defection. So at that point the party, as a whole, is not entirely racist.

I do see your point though. You are saying they are the only port in a storm.

I cannot, btw, slander all of Europe as indelibly anti-Jewish. I think Jews are more welcome there, and here, than anywhere else in the world. And, the lessening of that comes more from Muslims than widespread support for racist BNP supporters.

But, I'd most love a comment on what defines the party, the membership or some of the leaders?

Pastorius said...

John,
You have made a very important point in stating that Jews are more welcome in Europe and America than anywhere else in the world.

This post, and this debate, are very important. Thanks for initiating this discussion. I think this post is among the most important in the history of IBA.

Unknown said...

Ayatollah!!

These are interesting links. None, of course, say the Jews control the BNP. But they do present Nick Griffin as reformed.

It does seem like there was a basis for calling the BNP straight up racist. Still, that is such an easy and widespread slander.

BUT AOW, It seems as if they HAVE renounced their past. Nick Griffin is denouncing racism against Jews in Jewish newspapers. And the party at large has said they are pro-HIndu and accepting of Jews. That is what the Ayatollah articles show.

And again, if people are joining them on that basis, the party writ large (though not all of the members) seems to be culturist and not racist. And if that is what the base wants, they must steer that course. And so, despite what Griffin's private thoughts may be, they are not a racist party.

EPA, do you buy that logic?

Unknown said...

Thanks for the kind words, Pastorius. It has been educational for me. This great community has given me a lot of great info and interaction with which to clarify my thoughts. Thanks for being a host.

Pastorius said...

A host?

Well, thanks.

John, it is my intention to dissect your book paragraph by paragraph.

I've been reading it, and it seems to me every idea you put forth is worthy, no not just worthy, but CRUCIAL to the discussion that we need to have if we are to find our way out of this conflict.

You have proven the pen is mightier than the sword.

Anonymous said...

Culturist John said
...but what is the "BSD?"

It´s BondageSadoDominance

(joking lol)


BSD - Blue State Digital, the group who made the campaign for Obama, the group who´s making the smear campaign against BNP.

Here´s more:
www.hopenothate.org.uk

WHO´S PAYING THE SMEAR CAMPAIGN AGAINST THE BNP?

Anonymous said...

IBLOGAs

Do you have a comment?

Sarkozy and forced miscigenation:

http://euro-med.dk/?p=5499

Just Cause said...

Epa, "Repeat after me Anon.."I accept racist nutjobs, holocaust deniers and xenophobic crackpot ideas as the price of resistance to Shariah, when these ideas are rejected I'll be happy but until then I accept them as the price"
"

You could just as easy be talking about Islamists than the BNP! If we don't do anything about Sharia in this country we'll end up with holocaust denying, mysoginistic religious zealots in charge, raping our women for being uncovered, murdering our men for no reason. In this instance the BNP would be the lesser evil and as I've said before, the main three parties will do nothing about it. David Cameron has a golden opportunity to capitalise on this mood and crucify Labour with it but he hasn't because he still thinks that the political centreground is where his party should be. The British don't want things to stay the same, they want change, change that benefits Britain.

AOW - a valid question, I've said before that you have to take any change in direction by a political party with a pinch of salt because after all, they need votes and have to adapt to the mood of the people to garner the votes, even if it means suppressing some long held views. The labour party are doing the same thing, in the last week they've started to make noises that they are going to get tough on islamists with the case of Abu Qatada being a perfect example. They made a big deal about they are going to deport him but failed to mention the appeal process could take up to 7 years!

CJ - IMO By qualifying the terms you've accepted being a racist, so long as the terms aren't racist such as wanting to protect your culture, you're actually highlighting the failure of their attempt at marginalisation rather than risking it. I 100% agree though that being culturalist is the way to go. Your book has been added to my reading list which is about 100 long at the moment!

Unknown said...

Well my final opinion, for now, is that the BNP is not a racist organization, they seem to be more of a culturist organization.

The difference, as I said in the original post, is huge. Racism leads to destruction and no workable plan. Culturism allows for nuance and has workable policy recommendations to offer it.

I do believe that the BNP was racist. No one seems to disagree on that point. But I have read considerable recent denials of racism by the leadership.

This is important because a party is defined by its membership. If the base is not racist, the leaders cannot stray too far without defection. So while Nick Griffin may be lying about his change of heart, it doesn't matter much. Their swell in popularity and new members joined as non-racists. That will control the party as much as leaders and old party documents.

Culturism deals in reality, not abstractions. I cannot demand purity from any party. I accept Just Causes' argument that the racist, fascism we should worry about comes from Islam not a group whose leaders used to pronounce racist sentiments and whose membership is culturist.

Finally, were the BNP racist, they would welcome the Polish workers. White demographics are not, apparently, their biggest or only concern.

I'll check back later, but that is it for me for now, I've learned a lot this morning.

Thanks, John

Anonymous said...

More on BSD and their anti-BNP spam and spyware campaign:

http://www.democracyforum.co.uk/british-politics-other-parties/56644-blue-state-digital-send-out-anti-bnp-spam-emails.html


http://isupporttheresistance.blogspot.com/2009/01/spy-blog-watching-searchlight-and-bsd.html

Unknown said...

And just one more thought!!!

My determination that I will not - with the info I have - distance myself from the BNP or join those who too easily throw around the scare word racist, does not mean I endorse all they do or would be uncritical of them.

I would hope that they take the culturist tact of trying to stress unity of all in Britain behind western values. These are taught and positive.

A ban on Islamic immigration is necessary, and those here should be taught the glories of British heritage in English and only have recourse to British law. But, that done, no unnecessary infringements of rights should take place.

Multiculturalism divides and aggravates divisions. Culturism, to the extent possible, would have all in Britain happy to be living there.

Unity under western values is culturism's goal. Should the BNP veer towards intolerance and demonizing, it will run counter to culturist goals. It will create divisions that could have been be overcome. It would be as divisive as multiculturalists and nearly as bad as racists.

But, I am not that familiar with their policies and, from what I know, they could avert much more disaster than I presently worry about them making.

I would always urge the BNP to keep it positive and culturist.

NOW that's it for now!! John

Anonymous said...

WHO´S PAYING THE SMEAR CAMPAIGN AGAINST THE BNP?


Who?!

Anonymous said...

I 100% agree though that being culturalist is the way to go. Your book has been added to my reading list which is about 100 long at the moment!

What book?
Thanks.

Anonymous said...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/jan/26/bnp-obama-griffin-european

Obama online team to help take on BNP

The software means campaigners can then track who opens the emails, where they are sent and what happens when they arrive at the other end. They can then tailor future emails to groups and individuals.

"The software allows us to tailor emails to different groups and get information out there to hundreds of thousands of people."


What the heck?! Is a sort of a virus software?!

midnight rider said...

Hi Guys! Quite the donneybrook, eh?

Culturist John -- somewhere above you asked for a comment about what defines the party. These are partial posts I left for avid editor at his site and below in some threads. I'm not sure if this is what you're looking for but especially (b) defines this clearly. Apologies if you've already seen them. Anyway, hope it helps. --MR

Reread my comments. Wikipedia is not always the most reliable. Think what you will of the BBC (not my favorites either) but when the link is to the Constitution of the BNP itself

(b) The British National Party stands for the preservation of the national and ethnic
character of the British people and is wholly opposed to any form of racial
integration between British and non-European peoples. It is therefore committed
to stemming and reversing the tide of non-white immigration and to restoring, by
legal changes, negotiation and consent, the overwhelmingly white makeup of the
British population that existed in Britain prior to 1948.

Membership of the BNP is strictly defined
within the terms of, and our members also self define themselves within, the legal
ambit of a defined ‘racial group’ this being ‘Indigenous Caucasian’ and defined ‘ethnic
groups’ emanating from that Race as specified in law in the House of Lords

or from their Manifesto

a
system of voluntary resettlement whereby those immigrants and their descendants
who are legally here are afforded the opportunity to return to their lands of ethnic
origin assisted by a generous financial incentives both for individuals

or Nick Griffin’s own writings

in his own publication, The Rune: ‘I am well aware that orthodox opinion is that 6m Jews were gassed and cremated or turned into soup and lampshades… I have reached the conclusion that the “extermination” tale is a mixture of Allied wartime propaganda, extremely profitable lie, and latter witch-hysteria.’

Now if their own writings don’t convinvce you then there is no convincing you. Thus the numbnuts crack. Their own words and you refuse to see it, would rather excoriate IBA. So be it. It’s not my writing that needs to be defended here, it is the BNP’s itself.

I do apologize for the crack on your grammer. Mine is none to hot sometimes as well.

As for Shiva I don’t recall having any dust up with him myself so I am not sure what you are referring to.



Avid Editor — Congratulations on now being an American. And I mean that sincerely. How long have you lived here?

Where did you emmigrate from?

I ask partly out of true interest and partly to point out that in America it doesn’t matter where you come from you will have the same opportunity as anyone else on our shores.

But if you are from, say, Indonesia or Sudan or Israel or Ethiopia or China in Britain the BNP would say you can’t come in. According to the pieces I pointed out above.

Jason Pappas said...

Some of my British friends at the New English Review have discussed the problem of being abandoned by the dhimmitude of the major political parties but loathe the idea of closing ranks with the BNP. Here are a few links: a, b, c for your consideration. They're not convinced of the change.

Always On Watch said...

MR,
Damning stuff.

Jason,
Hello, my friend! Off to check those links. My blogging time is limited, but I've got to check out the info you left here at IBA.

Always On Watch said...

From the second link that Jason left:

The BNP are the old National Front re-packaged and are not the answer to the UK’s Muslim problem. Nick Griffin, the BNP’s leader, has stated publicly that his white skin is what defines him. He is a racist in the true sense of the word. Melanie Phillips discusses his anti-Semitism here.

To find that last portion, go to the second link (b) that Jason left above.

Epaminondas said...

"The BNP is not racist, just because it has some hot-head whites within its numbers isn't a just reason to label the whole party racist."

The same freaking thing could actually be said of the SA,the KKK, the CofCC, Aryan Nation etc.

It is a TOTALLY OBTUSE, wrongheaded, delusional argument to make.

There simply is NO ANSWER TO THIS:

RENOUNCE THE STATED BELIEFS OF THE LEADERS
Publicly
Happily
and with a 'prejudiced' vengeance

BUT THE BNP WILL NEVER

Those claiming the lesser of two evils argument will find Americans SITTING ON THEIR HANDS WATCHING THEM HOPING THEY ALL GO TO HELL ..BOTH SIDES

Don't come around asking me to help Jim Crow to defeat the Black Panthers.

It's PATHETICALLY DELUSIONAL

There is really little to discuss here

Support for the BNP to defeat Islam is totally selling out western values to remain alive among others like yourselves.

BYE

midnight rider said...

"Support for the BNP to defeat Islam is totally selling out western values to remain alive among others like yourselves."

Well and truly said, sir.

jeppo said...

The BNP are the only party standing up for the Jews against Muslim calls for violence against them. How are they any less anti-Semitic than the dhimmified mainstream parties who acquiesce in the open displays of violent Jew-hatred by British Muslims?

If I were British, I'd vote for the BNP in the EU elections, and the Tories in the national election. As bad as Nick Griffin is, or was, it would be harder for me to vote for that Islamic doormat, David Cameron.

Pastorius said...

Hey Jeppo,
I read the kind words you wrote about me over at GOV vs...

Thanks.

Question: Why do you bother with that nubjob's site? She is a good writer (she used to be an IBA contributor) and she's funny, but she's ...

Well, I won't say what she is.

midnight rider said...

I will, Pastorius, you're just being gentlemanly.

She's a damn whackjob.

(yeah, I know, probably not where you were going. . .)

Anonymous said...

Over the Last four years I have been checking out the sources of the anti-BNP propaganda, which has lead me to conditionally support the BNP.

If the BNP was a racist party, why isnt it banned ?

Who are the fascists in Britain.

In Britain Holocaust denial is not illegal yet Nick Griffin was sentenced to 9 months prison, for racial discrimination. So how can holocaust denial be racist. That trail was an example of the fascist tendencies the present status quo has adopted.

Griffin went on record in 2005 stating "This party has finally cast off the leg iron of anti-Semitism and not a moment too soon." The BNP currently has a Jewish councilor, Patricia Richardson, and has stated that it has Jewish members.

The now BNP says it does not deny the Holocaust and that "Dredging up quotes from 10,years ago is really pathetic and, in a sense, rather fascist.

But if it okay to slam the BNP for comments made ten years ago, then it is okay to go back further

This whole question of Holocaust Denial has another side. There is no hard facts as to how many Jews where murdered, and 6 million is the agreed figure.

What is alarming, is now today many people do not know how people where murdered, they are under the impression that it was only 6 million, where as the true figure is closer to 19 million, so under the same token that BNP are accused of Holocaust Denial, it is possible to level the same at the Jews for forgetting the other 13 million who where murdered.

It should also be remembered that WWII was not fought because of the German killing the Jews.

Let us remember that every body before WWII turned their backs on the Jews at the Evian Conference, thus giving Hitler the green card

And talking about racism, let me pull out from the hat one of the blogspheres heros

The gin soaked racist Winston Churchill attempted to introduce a Bill to control immigration in 1955. He also wanted the Conservative Party to adopt the slogan “Keep England White”

Epaminondas said...

Shiva, sorry but I'm coming down like a HAMMER .

To argue that because 6 million were the target of a BUSINESS PROCESS, engaged in by a plan of state, arrived at over days by the top echelon of that state (Wannsee) ..is the same as wanton mistreatment and starvation SIMILAR to what the Japanese (and Soviets) did to everyone as POWS is REVISIONIST history.

It is also to argue that to see the Holocaust for what it is - is to ignore Cambodia, Darfur, the Ukraine (1930's ..and closest to what the Nazis attempted). One has nothing to do with the other, and no one in the BNP CARES in the least about how many farmers were starved on purpose in 1935, or how many asians had their heads punctured in SE ASIA ..one wonders WHY they didn't bother to mention that, or deny or minimize that?

45 million died. 6 million WERE MURDERED. Not because they were political enemies, martial enemies or opposed to national socialism..but because they were like the gypsies, mentally deficient and homosexuals...untermenchsen, in this case by race and belief.

WSC has his weaknesses as a human. All we have to do is look at how he referred to Ghandi to see it, however I wouldn't hold his POST STROKE 80+ (which forced his retirement as PM - as he was aware himself he wasn't with it) statement up too much.

jeppo said...

Pastorius, I figured that Lex's site needed a pro-GoV, pro-Atlas, pro-JW, pro-IBA troll. I do agree with her about LGF though...;)

Anonymous said...

No, 19 million untermenchsen where murdered.

And churchill was not senile when he lobbied for compulsory sterilization of the mentally handicapped:

"I feel that the source from which the stream of madness is fed should be cut off and sealed up before another year has passed."

Sir Winston himself declared: "History will be kind to me for I intend to write it."

Anonymous said...

I do not want to get involved in discussing the BNP and racism/antisemitism as it distracts me from focusing on the perils of Islam.

If we are to focus on racism/antisemitism then we should tackle all the political parties because they are all guilty, just focusing on the BNP is a serious mistake, and does not address the scourge of racism/antisemitism.

I would like to pose one question, what are the motives of the people who are mounting this propaganda campaign against the BNP,

Are they really concerned about racism, or are the concerned about losing their place at the feeding trough?

What I do ask is for is more research should be done on the people who are critical of the BNP.

kevin said...

Shiva, please read my post above.

Anonymous said...

I keep finding this Griffin quote but with never with a link:
http://nation-of-duncan.blogspot.com/2007/07/countering-smears.html
(...)
The following is from the BNP leader in 2006 and was quoted in the Mail on Sunday, a paper not noted for its left-wing sympathies to put it mildly:

"It's well known that the chimneys from the gas chambers at Auschwitz are fake, built after the war ended."
(...)

Why can't I, after a search of http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/mailonsunday/index.html, find any 2006 Nick Griffin article with this quote?

There could be some perfectly innocent reason for this-I guess.

Anonymous said...

Culturist? An interesting concept. Are all cultures created equal? How do we decide what is the superior culture?

I don't think there is a straight forward answer here. There is much we can all learn from each other.

The beauty of Britian is that people are free to express themselves and engage in debate about different views of the world. If they feel passionately enough then they can engage with the political system and effect change.

In this respect I don't see why the BNP should be marginalised. No matter how extreme their views they have a right to express them. As do their counterparts on the Islamic side.

What will Britian look like in 20-30 years? Who knows. Will it even exist? The Scots are leaving the Union, the Irish have already done so (well partly), and the EU is becoming ever more powerful.

Personally, I support the BNP's right to exist and stand up for their beliefs. I completely disagree with their vision of what Bristish society should look like, but, that's an argument we can have in our democracy. I also support the right of Islamic groups in Britian to have and express their beliefs. Again I completely disagree with their view of what British society should look like, but, lets have the debate.

Is the BNP racist - no doubt, let's not pretend otherwise. Do they have the best interests of Britian a heart? I'm sure they think they do. So let them have their say. In the end people will make up their own minds.

Anonymous said...

Epaminondas: "Support for the BNP to defeat Islam is totally selling out western values to remain alive among others like yourselves."

well sir, tell me, who else will rid the UK of it's problem? Labor? or bullshit Conservatives?

just tell me who. and even if people DO wake up to the fact that Islam is a cancer, THEY cannot do anything whilst having cartoons running the country!

or are the muslims supposed to leave themselves? eh?

tell me who...

Anonymous said...

people are coming to realize the problem more and more, politicians in power who do: 0

Edwin Greenwood said...

Midnight Rider: But if you are from, say, Indonesia or Sudan or Israel or Ethiopia or China in Britain the BNP would say you can’t come in.

And I have no doubt that if you are from Britain, many in Indonesia, Sudan, Israel, Ethiopia or China would equally say "you can't come in". Would you condemn that response, or would you perhaps argue that they are legitimately defending their "tribal homeland" and/or their "tribal integrity"?

Why are we so fixated on racism as some kind of binary all-or-nothing evil? I have always dealt happily, for example, with the Nigerians I have met here in London on an individual basis. Some were fine upstanding people, some were complete bastards, and I related to them as such.

And yet now the area I live in is being overrun with Nigerians, and I used the term "overrun" advisedly. I oppose this. Partly because this immigrant community has clearly reached critical mass and is likely to turn inwards rather than acculturate, something we see even in the 2nd and 3rd generation in for example the Sylheti/Bengali communities of East London.

That, if you like, is the cultural element. But there is also a racial element, namely that in the end I would prefer to continue to live in a community composed overwhelmingly of my own tribe.

If I were to take that position as, say, a Yoruba resisting a mass Chinese immigration into Lagos (not a total improbability, by any means), everybody would nod sympathetically. But if I take that view as an Englishman resenting a Yoruba invasion of South East London, then apparently I am a monster.

Certainly the BNP have a certain amount of racist baggage, past and present. But so do most people. These things are a matter of balance.

Edwin Greenwood said...

There seems to be an unhealthy preoccupation here with Griffin's Holocaust denial and the apparent importance of whether or not he has recanted.

I see no sensible justification for denying the historical reality of the "Holocaust". The acknowledged physical and testimonial evidence is strong. If Griffin is suggesting that the evidence was fabricated as some kind of post-war propaganda exercise, that is pure tinfoil-hattery, probably masking a desire to rehabilitate the Nazis rather than antisemitism per se.

On the other hand, I agree with shiva that we pay undue attention to the industrialized murder of the 6 million Jews to the exclusion of the Gypsies, homosexuals, disabled, Slav Untermenschen etc, etc.

I also, like Gerald Kaufman (hardly your average antisemite), take the view that both the Israeli state and some elements in the Zionist Diaspora have cynically encouraged and exploited the shame and guilt felt by Europeans at the way the Jews were treated by the Nazis. Perhaps some at least of the Holocaust-denialists are groping, misguidedly, for a corrective to that.

Holocaust-denial is delusory nonsense, not some deciding totem of evil. It is similar to the conviction among some British Mulsim denialists that the 7/7 suicide-bombings cannot have been committed by Muslims and must therefore have been some kind of MI5-inspired plot.

If Griffin follows that view, it may call his judgment into question, but I do not see it as necessarily the self-sufficient stigma of unacceptable evil that some claim.

Once again, balance.

Edwin Greenwood said...

Ah, the dangers of editing without thinking through the consequences. The comparison with Muslim response to the 7/7 bombings, above, was an afterthought which disrupted the sense of the following paragraph.

By "If Griffin follows that view...", I mean of course "If Griffin adheres to Holocaust denial...".

Anonymous said...

Kevin, Sir Oswald Mosley?

What did the mention of his name make you feel?
Now, Educate your own mind without any media interuptions.
Research this most great leader Britain never had.
Certainly opened my eyes' to the lies that we are fed.

Pastorius said...

Sir Oswald Mosley; friend of Adolf Hitler, Joseph Goebbels, and Benit Mussolini, ran the British Union of Fascists, had his own paramilitary team of "blackshirts" to ensure "peace" at his rallies, stood against war in 1940, after Hitler had already attacked Britain, marched with his blackshirts through Jewish neighborhoods ...

What should we think about the man, Anonymous?

Why don't you educate us?

Anonymous said...

"No rising star in the political firmament ever shone more brightly than Sir Oswald Mosley. Since by general assent he could have become the leader of either the Labour or the Conservative Party. What Mosley so valiantly stood for could have saved this country from the Hungry Thirties and the Second World War". - Michael Foot, M.P.

M Foot MP FAR LEFT.

Educate yourself- thats' your job not anyone else's!

http://www.oswaldmosley.com/

Even back then Parliament was sending our money and jobs overseas'
Read Mosley's resignation speech for an eye opener!

Anonymous said...

Daily Mail headline prior to the EU elections.
" Nazi on Buckinghham Palace Lawn"

Nick Griffin had an invite later cancelled to a Buck Palace Garden party.

My first thought on reading the headline.

So what, HRH Prince Phillip must have walked across it's lawn many times before, his having been in the Hitler youth movement, yet Griffin never was, what a stupid statement from what was a Fascist supporting newspaper in the 30s just as was the Daily Mirror.

Everyone can change their stance in the UK but NOT the BNP"

Fabian Fascist's are in power- but that doesn't matter one iota.