Monday, December 17, 2007

Europe: A Beautiful Game Turned Ugly

When I warn against the counter-Jihad movement allying itself with Ethnic Nationalist parties in Europe, I do so with a background of five years of intense study of the the Jihad, anti-Semitism and European politics. This video might help explain what it is that I am concerned with.

Americans might think that parties like the Vlaams Belang are simply anti-Jihad. But, if that is so, then why do they declare themselves to be Ethnic Nationalists who are for a "white Europe"?

And, if the Ethnic Nationalist parties of Europe are not filled with racists, then how do you explain the comments in this thread?

Clearly, we can not take that thread as proof-positive that Europe is indeed racist and ready to support a new political fascism. But, we can see from this video that Ethnic Nationalist parties certainly have a lot of supporters in the bleachers at soccer games. Put two and two together.

Who do you think those soccer fans would vote for?

Contrary to its image of sophistication and enlightenment, Europe is behind America on race relations.


felix said...

This is really depressing. I have been trying to follow the back-and-forth in the anti-jihad community between those who don't want any connection with right wing EU groups who have neo-nazi past and those who say it should be overlooked--that people change (which they do). As I recall alot of the discussion was aired on LGF and Gates of Vienna.

Always On Watch said...

Very disturbing footage.

As I've said all along, Europe is not so unbiased--despite multiple claims to the contrary.

VinceP1974 said...

I think it's pretty sad that you have to purpetuate this crap.

Where do you get off equating racist spanairds with what is going on in Brussels?

I think you're being racist against white Europeans.. lumping them all together... making the most tenious of guilt by association.

I'm getting to the point where I'm starting to feel sorry for the racists... after all no matter how much you want to pretend that Europe isn't "white".. i'm sure lots of people there would disagree with you, and they live there and you don't.. i think you're so out of line.

What's next.. you going to declare the republican party a racist party becuase ron paul attracts nazis?

Pastorius said...


One thing I think is being lost in this debate is that both LGF and Gates of Vienna are good sites that provide a lot of important information about the Jihad. Everyone ought to continue to read them, keeping in mind the bias of each site.

Oh yeah, and of course keep our bias in mind as well.

Although, I must say,

we are the only site which has presented both sides of the argument,

because our writers all have their own opinions and are allowed to express them.

Pastorius said...

Vince P.

Are you not aware that the founding members and tenets of both the Vlaams Belang and BNP are racist. They still declare themselves to be ethnic nationalists, and many of the people who are established leaders of the parties are Holocaust Deniers and call for white Europe.

The Republican Party, on the other hand, was founded as the party which fought AGAINST slavery in the United States of America.

magnus said...

Who doI think they vote for?

If they are in Belgium I hope they vote for Vlaams Belang. And I'm not racist.

magnus said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
magnus said...

I didn't watched that video before last comment (I used my rss reader ), and I think racist slurs is unacceptable, and also Vlaams Belangs politicians thinks that.

There are lots of Nazis in Europe. E.g. Hundreds of them in Sweden and 1000s or 10000s of them in Germany. That's however not a major threat of Europe right now. (Of course it shall, when needed, be handled by police etc.)

BUT ALSO VERY IMPORTANT: At football games against Algerian teams in France, sometimes the Algerian fans sabotage the matches. It's a racism in the opposite direction which don't seems to be less strong. Really not!

Of course both kind of racism must be targeted, but I'm not chocked of this. We have had the problem with Nazis in Germany, Italy etc. for a long time now, but I don't think it has increased that much. People don't easily change their minds or their values, and in Europe people right now in massively don't change their minds towards racism. Whatever they say in this TV program, that's a fact.

And I hope that many people in Belgium vote VB, but that less people vote racist parties.

Anonymous said...

I can only speak with the UK in mind. The problem is that the three main political parties are refusing to address the problems resulting from unprecedented immigration and are selling us down the river to the Islamists.

The BNP is being very carefull how it presents itself. Like Macbeth, BNP and Enoch Powell are the names that cannot be spoken. That is without a torrent of abuse and accusations of racism, Nazism etc.

This is a well organised effort from the extreme left and the Islamists who now work together to target the BNP wherever they appear.

In the meantime the white working class are turning to the BNP because they say what they want to hear. Their election manifesto would seem to be commonsense and most reasonable/informed people would agree with them. What they don't realise is that most of their manifesto is undeliverable.

Ordinary, decent people - mainly those that have had to live amongst Muslims - are now supporting the BNP out of desperation. It is also true that there are out and out racists in the BNP, but I suppose there are extremes in all political parties.

Anonymous said...

Re the above comment. I will say that I do not support the BNP but having looked into what they are about I can understand why some people might do.

I'm having trouble getting my ID in properly in comments. So if it doesn't work this time my website is Common Sense Against Islam

felix said...

I just checked out your website. Take a look at:
Ban the Veil (and public mask wearing)

Pastorius said...

Magnus and Ray,
Would you say, then, that this kind of racist agitation at Football games is in retaliation for agitation by North African (Islamist) countries?

I tried to take that into account when I wrote this. The names of the players who are being harrassed in these videos are African names, not Muslim names.

But, of course, I am an American so I could be off on this.

Anonymous said...

No, it's just racism. many of those who follow football in Europe, Italy especially, are out and out racists.

There is very little racism in English football, black players are judged on their ability as are other players. In the rare occasions when racism erupts it's stamped on by the FA. The team is penalised.

Pastorius said...

That's because us Anglos make better human beings than Italians.


magnus said...

Pastorius: "Would you say, then, that this kind of racist agitation at Football games is in retaliation for agitation by North African (Islamist) countries?"

Huh! Please, don't formulate new and confusing questions all the time! (Like: "Do you still hurt your girlfriend?")

The answer, and what I wrote, is that this isn't a major problem in Europe right now. You can see it, but the Nazis are very few in numbers. So how can a non existing problem be caused by something!?

Yes, I mention that there is a problem in France, and you try to force me to say that "they" are guilty for "our" racism. You donm't debate very well. It seems as if you just search for a reason to slander me. In doing that you already almost slander me, don't you see?

Bt I shall explain what I'm not very well understand, but anyway:

We have in France a tensions between France and Algeria based on ethnical and/or national proud. It is booing when tha national anthem is played, or riots before after or during a match.

This is not the same as a few (a small minority) white power guys in the land with more fascist tradition than most European countries, namely Italy. (an explanation, I think, why Italy has more racist slurs, "heil greetings" etc on their games). What is the cause of this? Gilles Kepel is a French (I think slightly) left intellectual, and he say (just as the Danish party Dansk Folkeparti or the "islamophobe" danish historian Lars Hedegaard) that "Multiculturalism has been a catastrophe. It leads to the balkanisation of society and ultimately to civil war". Kepel, who is an famous islamologue, is not the only French intellectual who's think like this.

I think this is relevant for this discussion, whether you like it or not. (It might ultimately some day also be relevant in America?)

When it comes to the racism problem, which you are so concerned about "in your brothers eye" -- in Europe -- the Jewish philosopher Alain Finkielkraut (Wikiedia) say that "[w]e live today in an environment of a `perpetual war on racism' and the nature of this anti-racism also needs to be examined" and that "`the war on racism' is gradually turning into a hideously false ideology. And this anti-racism will be for the 21st century what communism was for the 20th century. A source of violence. Today, Jews are attacked in the name of anti-racist discourse: the separation fence, `Zionism is racism.'

There's a lot more to read here (I haven't read it myself yet.)

I guess there is a bandwagon of higher moral ground, but with a lack od rationality. With the influx of Muslims (France now have 10 or 15 percent and much more in the south; the Swedish third city got 25 percent Muslims) there shall be no surprise what the moral ground will looks like. And still the racism is quite low, even in France.

I'm sure that Eurabia is a huge problem. The Palestinian autohrity asked for about 5 billion dollars in foreign aid this year, and they got about 7 billion dollars from EU. Sweden gave them a lot more than last year. Eurabia means we must promote immigration from Africa and the Arab countries, and it means that we can't support Israel.

Pastorius: "I tried to take that into account when I wrote this. The names of the players who are being harrassed in these videos are African names, not Muslim names."

You say "Islamist [countries]" in a parenthesis above. I don't think the tensions is solely caused by religion; origin countries may be "Islamists", "only Islamic", or Christian (Eritrea, Ethiopia, Kenya etc etc), but the problem I think is the cultural differences and split (good) national proud in a too mixed population where about half the population (or one third) has another identity than the other half (or two third). That is the problem, but of course cultural difference is -- scientifically at any measurement -- dependent of religion too (because religion and culture has a symbiotic relation).

Pastorius: "But, of course, I am an American so I could be off on this."

I hope you are not sarcastic here. Otherwise, yes, I think you're right. ;-) And I may be off regarding Italian fascism. I have not been there meeting Lega Nord sympathizers (but of course Alessandra Mussolini is a anti democracy fascist; probably pro Arabic racist against Jews and quite close too communism economically; or at least the most of these my prejudice).

BUT MOST IMPORTANT: Please don't try to catch those who you discuss with here in your pitfall created by knowledge-lacking prejudice. I can only understand some comments from you that way,, and that makes you completely "off the road" making up your own little games for the amusement of yourself. It's just an ugly, or boring (or both) sight. (Re-read this last sentences, please.)

Pastorius said...

I think you are getting more upset with me than is warranted. I was not being sarcastic when I said, "I'm an America, so what do I know."

I couldn't know what is really happening in Europe. I can only read of what is happening there. Obviously, the people I read may have biases in one direction or another, and I might not be able to decipher much of the truth through those biases.

That being said, I don't think I am entirely off in my understanding. So, go ahead and tell me if you think I am wrong. That's fine. You seem like a decent guy. I'm not mad at you.

I can say this confidently; I don't like the fans in that video, and I don't like what I have seen of Filip DeWinter.

As I understand it, you are telling me there is very little problem with racism. And, what racism there is may exist in one country and not in another. And perhaps I am assuming that most countries in Europe behave the way they do in Spain or Italy.

Just as people might blame America for some of the things that came out of the South in the past.

Do I have that right? Is that what you are saying?

Jason Pappas said...

Quite disgusting, of course. It reminds me of the Mexican soccer fans yelling “Viva Osama” when the American team played there after 9/11. Completely disgusting. Soccer fans tend to be the most vile and pathetic.

Fortunately, I don’t see any major political impact from these lowlifes. Let me correct that. I see little growth potential for these types in the Western parts of Europe but Eastern Europe worries me. We’ve seen the decay of Yugoslavia but the worse is yet to come in Russia.

This raises an important question for us. What do we do when a fascist (or communist) regime is dealing with the Islamic threat? Do we support them, condemn them, or stay quiet?

We’ve been there before. During the Cold War we had to support some questionable regimes. During WWII we supported one of the worse, Stalin! How should we form our alliances?

It gets even worse. Today we support Pakistan (giving it planes that they can use against India) and Saudi Arabia (need I explain?) How should we proceed?

I think these questions are the more pressing ones. But, of course, moral condemnation is appropriate even for the fringe cases. I just don’t want us to lose sight of the big and tough problems ahead. I think we need to discuss this.

Pastorius said...

I agree, we do need to discuss this. What's more, I am not afraid of the other side of the arguments I make. I recognize the fact that we might eventually have to align ourselves with some very unsavory types. However, at this point, we aren't really even in a war in Europe or America, so what's the rush? That's the question I would pose to GOV. They seem to be in a hurry. Very odd.

The fact that they, and others, are rushing in to such alliances does not say good things about their strength of character, and to the extent that they are representative of the counter-Jihad movement as a whole, it does damage to the movement.

Jason Pappas said...

There’s little immediate need to figure out who’s who in local politics over there and I often remain skeptical. However, in the long term we can learn from the efforts in Europe since they have to face the problem first given their demographics. I just don’t have the time to delve into it.

Right now I’m upset over our alliances in the Middle East. We’ve talked about the mistakes of Bush and Condi here and on our own blogs. I think outside our group the right is too soft on the appeasement and evasions of the current administration. I don’t see the Republican candidates making a clean and clear break with current policy. That’s got me furious. But that’s where I’m at.

Pastorius said...

It seems to me our leaders make our situation more dangerous by the day. It would make me furious, but I am resigned to it by this point.

The "victory" in Iraq is a case in point. I have a hard time seeing it as a victory when we've had to negotiate our exit strategy with Iran and Saudi Arabia. Hell, maybe I am wrong, but it doesn't seem like we have won anything.

And, I have a feeling the Iraqi Christians agree with me.

VinceP1974 said...

"This raises an important question for us. What do we do when a fascist (or communist) regime is dealing with the Islamic threat? Do we support them, condemn them, or stay quiet? "

Well we have the answer to this.. and we don't need to wonder.

The US along with NATO decided to bomb Serbia into submission.

Then we invaded the soverign nation of Serbia and decided to remove from Serbia its authority over the province.

We let the Muslims go out of control, where Kosovo is now over 90% Muslim.

We're on the verge of allowing Kosovo to remove itself from Serbia and be its own State.

we in effect sided with the muslim jihadis , destroyed a European nation , and are now stealing the land and giving a reward to Iranian and Saudi clients.

All because the Serbs were the Big Bad White Racists and the Muslims were the poor pitiful victimes.. (unless of course you consider history up until the early 1900s when in that case the Muslims were aggressive homocidal fanatics)

America has horrible judgement when it comes to race and Europe and nothing shows itself that we learned anything with our atrocity in Kosovo.