Friday, September 26, 2008

So What's the Cure?

Back in early September, there was a short post called "If Islam is an Infection, What's the Cure?" and many of us weighed in with good answers. I thought I'd post a follow-up edited summary of the answers. I tried to make this as short as possible (and failed miserably)"

Blogger Pastorius said, "Ronald Reagan would say Freedom. Franklin Roosevelt and Abraham Lincoln would say, beating the hell out of them physically, and then forcing them to change mentally by changing their laws, institutions and way of life from the top down. I side with Lincoln on this one...I think the mental game is won by force of law. Sharia is sedition. The penalty for sedition should be death or deportment to a Muslim country of the prisoner's choice. The reason we are not truly having success in Iraq is because we did not fight this war the way we fought Japan, Germany, and the American South."

Blogger Damien said, "We will not get rid of Islam in our lifetime, regardless of our desires. However, we may be able to westernize and demilitarize any terrorist-supporting Islamic countries if we force them into unconditional surrender and we make them except the separation of Mosque and state in a written Constitution. We would then have to occupy the country for awhile to make sure they obey the new constitution. In the meantime to the best of our ability, shutting down all the madrassas and replacing everything from their school textbooks to their television programs with ones that support things like freedom of religion and freedom of conscience, deprogramming the demoralized population.

"Another possibility would be to do everything we could do to weaken and subvert Islamic governments. Our government could covertly support and encourage rebellion.

"The least we could do and should do is stand up for our values. Stop being politically correct and say that western culture is superior to Islamic culture. Support individual rights and human rights and point out that they don't depend on culture. Also stand up against the Islam-o-Fascist when it comes to religious freedom in particular and as Citizen Warrior always says, stop conceding to their demands."

Blogger Max Publius said, "I liken the situation with Islam to mental AIDS, which is from the virus HIV of course."

Blogger Aukmuntr said, "People who have not studied the nature of the enemy and therefore don't know that they are even an enemy. So education on the true nature of Islam to the masses is the key, then we could deploy the only solution that will prevail: All out annihilation of this festering boil of control freaks.

"Education is not enough, but it appears to be a tool to at least slow them down a bit. As CAIR sends its propaganda minions to communities across the nation, people don't even know about taqiyya.

"I teach this to everyone I know, and it is amazing to see the reactions on their faces. To top it off, most are very willing to know the facts and want more and more. I have had quick conversations with everyday people turn into hours long discussions, repeatedly. SPREAD THE WORD my friends! People will listen."

Blogger Epaminondas said, "The cure (here at any rate) is relentless civil suits against the mosques and every individual on the boards of directors of the mosques in the court for teachings which result in violent attack. Imagine where we would if the mosque of the moron who ran down the kids at UNC was driven in to nonexistence and each member of the board of directors of the mosque was reduced to utter penury for allowing teachings that resulted in the attack ...or the attack at the JCC in Seattle?"

"We would either drive out those who insist they are compelled by god to teach violence and hate which results in violence, or break the cycle and result in those who would eschew such teachings PERMANENTLY."

Blogger Anonymous said, "A sustained and thorough campaign of propaganda against Islam, followed, if need be, by a large nuke above the Kaaba."

Blogger Pastorius said, "The SPLC (Southern Poverty Law Center) had some success in breaking up white supremacist groups by suing them for the results of their indoctrination."

Blogger SamenoKami said, "A warrior religion must be defeated via war. Islam's goal is world domination and they (leaders/those who buy into that) will not stop if it takes 5yrs or 500yrs. They must be physically beaten into submission and kept there."

Blogger Citizen Warrior said, "Some form of discrimination needs to be established against the Islamic religion, and a careful watch set up in each mosque to monitor what is preached in the khutba (Friday sermon). This may seem harsh and undemocratic, but for survival reasons it has to be done. Islam IS different than other religions. The really rabid, infectious Muslims need to be isolated from others (quarantined), just as you would a rabid dog, to prevent the spread of the virus. And for any of this to happen, there has to be a political will that would support the discrimination and military actions necessary, which means a lot more people need to know about the uniqueness of Islamic religious teachings. Far too many people in the free world are completely ignorant of the fact that Islam is any different from any other religion.

"I've heard many people give the excuse that you CAN'T educate people because they won't listen. That's not good enough. YOU have to get better at speaking, then. You need to increase your ability to persuade. This is no time to give up. This is no time to throw in the towel.

"There are plenty of good books on persuasion. There are plenty of people in this world who started out selling shoes or newspapers who were unskilled and didn't make a lot of money, but with perseverance they LEARNED and became very GOOD at selling. You can do it too. It's worth taking the time to develop the most important skill you can have in this battle at this time (unless you are a soldier): The ability to effectively influence your fellow citizens."

Blogger Pastorius said, "We have never won a war and effectively changed a people over from one ideology to another without being absolutely physically/militarily RUTHLESS first."

Blogger Citizen Warrior said, "Total military domination is necessary to QUICKLY change the belief systems of the population of a country. In Germany and Japan, the U.S. occupied the countries for a time, after completely defeating their war machine. And the the U.S. forced a new way of doing and thinking on the population.

"For the political will to do something like that, massive education of our fellow citizens is vital, which is why the IBA is so important. And why each of us needs to take what we learn out into the world and talk to people who do NOT know about Islam, and do it effectively."

Blogger Bosch Fawstin said, "Even the least infected of Muslims have still been corrupted by its indifference to matters outside of Islam."

Blogger Pastorius said, "We have fought three wars which FORCED fundamental change:

"1) the American Civil war (we burned Atlanta to the ground, leaving them with practically nothing, and assuring them of the fact that we were willing to level absolute destruction on a massive scale) ...

"2) Germany - Dresden fire-bombing, need I say more

"3) Japan - nukes - bye bye 150,000 people and two whole cities.

"After the war we were just as ruthless to their ideologies as we were to their cities.

"We banned the state religion/ideology in all three cases. Banned shinto buddhims, nazism and slavery. No dissemination or advocation of such was allowed in the years after the war.

"We have not done that in either Iraq or Afghanistan, and that's why Islam is still in control and that's why we will have even more trouble down the road, and that's why even more people will be killed than we can imagine at this time.

"Absolute War - Absolute ideological destruction.

"One - two

"Bam Bam.

"That's it.

"That's how you force fundamental change.

"The solution for us is memetics, not for the Jihadis. We need to come up with catchy slogans (branding) which will teach our people about our enemy. But memes and catchy slogans are not going to work on Islam itself."

"Bam bam. A punch to the gut (nation) and a punch to the head (ideas)."

Blogger Citizen Warrior said, "Really all the solutions need to be done: Enlightening our fellow citizens, using military force, quarantines for the most contagious spreaders of hate, and the forceful suppression of seditious writing and speech which means the forceful suppression of most Islamic writings. Tough stuff. It'll never get done until non-Muslims are very clear about the true nature of fundamental Islamic teachings."

Blogger Pastorius said, "I have often thought we won't win until much of the left agrees with us. One of the best things we've got going in our favor when it comes to the leftist anti-Western paradigm falling, is that lefties are supremely selfish and addicted to their toys and comforts. The moment their comforts are taken away from them, Islam will not longer be considered a weapon with which to attack the West, and will become, instead, an enemy."

Blogger Bosch Fawstin said, "Damien asks: 'Were you corrupted by that same indifference when you saw yourself as Muslim?'

To a point, yes, as it was the given that their was an Us and Them attitude around the home. The casual derogatory terms regarding Jews, adopting the Arabic term 'Yahoodi', [spelling may be off] But I had the good fortune of having relatively lax Muslim parents and the great fortune of being raised in America, where Western values were readily available all around us and became part of us, even 'corrupting' my parents ever more so away from Islam, though they would never have dared thought so, seeing themselves as devout Muslims."

Blogger Pastorius said, "Every other option is on the table as far as I'm concerned. Islam is extremely dangerous. It hasn't changed in 1300 years, and yet weaponry has gotten more advanced. That means, their religion, which is as barbarous as the Dark Ages (which really is the origin of the Dark Ages, if you ask me) has now got the chance to fight with modern weaponry.

Dark Ages plus nuclear weapons = Not a good thing

In my opinion, we start throwing them out by enforcing our laws against sedition. If we give them the option of either the death penalty or deportation to a Sharia state of their choice, then good for them. They get to live under Sharia. And, good for us, we're done with them.

Enforce the law, see who complains and then expel those people as well.

Rinse and repeat.

That's my recommendation."

Blogger Citizen Warrior said, "Along the lines of what Pastorius was saying about forcing Japan and Germany to change their ways...In the movie I Am Legend, Will Smith had to capture the sick ones and strap them down and FORCE them to take the cure. They were so wild and violent they wouldn't do it on their own."

Blogger Pastorius said, "Southern Poverty Law Center, which is a total bullshit leftist organization IN MY OPINION, but they have had great success against the KKK, which means that they deserve kudos for that.

However, the reason I don't like them is they continue to ignore the Islamic threat and act as if the KKK is the biggest problem in the U.S. today.

That's complete bullshit. And yet, they still continue to get massive donations from aging hippies.

But I digress.

The real point is they have had success by suing the KKK into submission."

Blogger Damien said, "Citizen Warrior, you asked,
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And yet they are isolated and marginalized. I wonder how that is done? They must have been labeled an illegal group or something. The FBI must be trying to shut them down all the time. Their activities must be illegal.

Does anyone know the specifics of how the KKK is kept suppressed?
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I saw a documentary on the History Channel a while back called "The Ku Klux Klan: A Secret History," It was very interesting. The program talked about the hate group's origins and history. It answers your questions perfectly. One of the things that helped to marginalize the klan is the same thing we are doing right here and right now to defeat the Islamists, educating people about them, letting outsiders know how they think, their goals and their motives.

Also if you're interested they made another Program called "Nazi America: A Secret History" It was about Neo Nazis. Both programs may teach us a thing or two about how to deal with Islamic fanatics. However we have to keep in mind that just because a tactic worked against Klansmen or Nazis, doesn't necessarily mean it will work when dealing with Islam-o-Fascists. But you could still watch either program to get some good ideas."

Blogger Citizen Warrior said, "It's possible at least some of the legal actions taken against the KKK might be applicable to dealing with Jihadis within our borders.

Last night I was watching Terrorists Among Us for the hundredth time (perhaps I exaggerate) and saw taqiyya again, more clearly than ever. Steven Emerson interviewed Jihadis up close and personal and they lied right to his face. Emerson showed an interview clip where a Jihadi says "no, I don't know anything about that," and he immediately afterward, he showed articles or speeches by that same Jihadi calling for jihad!"

Blogger Damien said, "Maybe Television, Radio, And the Internet are their weakness. I wonder what that one Jihadist would think if he saw "The Terrorist Among Us" and how they blew his cover. He'd probably wish that Television and Video was never invented. Its much harder to keep lying and get away with it, once most people realize your a liar."

Blogger Citizen Warrior said, "Pastorius, here's a new improved version of your RPOV8:

Sharia is sedition; expel Jihadis from the country.

No matter what else the U.S. government does, that should DEFINITELY be done. As soon as enough of us are clear that Sharia really IS sedition, I think that would be pretty easy legislation to pass."

Blogger Citizen Warrior said, "The answer to taqiyya is exposing the lies. That's one of the things I really liked about the movie, Obsession. They showed Jihadis being interviewed by the western media, and they said one thing. Then it showed them speaking in Arabic to their own people, saying just the opposite. Taqiyya captured on film!"

Blogger SamenoKami said, "I think the KKK is suppressed because most people see them as idiots and avoid them. The FBI used/uses agents provocateur to goad them into stupider things and arrests them. The KKK peaked in the '40s maybe, so the philosophy is dying out, which is quite the opposite of jihaders.

I owned stock in the company that makes a directed sound thingy. I don't know if it was totally weaponized but about a year ago a cruise ship used the device to drive off pirates. The sound can be focused so that just one person in a group hears it. There was talk of singling out one jihader in a group and speaking to him in the name of allah - 'Kill those with you for they dishonor me' kinda stuff and letting him hear the 'voice of allah' and do our job for us."

Blogger Citizen Warrior said, "Most people see them as idiots." I like that. Most people see them as idiots or as a danger to a civil society. And that's one of my missions: To help people see Islam's relentless encroachment as a danger to civil society, a danger to democracy, and a danger to civil liberties. When enough people see them that way, the legislation is easy, and so is the willingness to be ruthless where we need to.

SamenoKami, using that sound thingy as the voice of Allah is a creative idea!

In some ways I think the ingenuity of the free world unleashed on this problem would come at it from a thousand different angles and Jihadis, with their backward ways of thinking and lack of creativity, wouldn't stand a chance against the fun-loving, rock-n-rolling, inventive democracies."

Blogger Pastorius said, "Sharia is sedition; expel Jihadis from the country. That's the best yet, in my opinion."

Blogger Citizen Warrior said, "If we think of jihad as an infection of the mind, it would be a logical choice to take someone already raging with the contagious disease and get them away from the healthy ones. And you've hit on an already established, perfectly legal, perfectly justifiable (given already-existing laws) reason to do so. Expel the seditious."

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We are still waiting for Brigitte Gabriel's answer (the author of They Must Be Stopped: Why We Must Defeat Radical Islam and How We Can Do It). When she leaves her answer on the original post, I'll add it to this summary.

40 comments:

Damien said...

Citizen Warrior,

Thanks for re-posting our ideas. I'm glad you liked mine.

To a degree, I hate to have to do this, but unfortunately, I don't think people can really understand what I was saying unless they read my comment in full. You left out some important things. So I will reprint it here without the links. If you want to see the links, check out Citizen Warriors earlier post on this subject that he got these comments on.
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In someways the virus analogy is a bad one because beliefs don't operate the same way as viruses. If you catch a virus, you can't choose which parts will effect you. You can't choose the symptoms. But some people can and do choose to embrace part of a belief system and reject the rest.

Here is where a my Truculent_Realism comes in. There is no cure for "Islam" in the sense that there is a cure for a virus and there never will be. We will not get rid of Islam in our life time, regardless of our desires. However we may be able to westernize and demilitarize any terrorist supporting Islamic countries if we force them into unconditional surrender and we make them except the separation of Mosque and state in a written Constitution. We would then have to occupy the country for awhile to make sure they obey the new constitution, in the mean time to the best of our ability, shutting down all the medrassas and replacing everything from their school text books to their television programs, with ones that support things like freedom of religion and freedom of conscious, deprogramming the demoralized population. But that would require an incredible degree of determination and ruthlessness. I'm not sure Americans have the stomach for such a war and occupation. Also we would have to get a majority of the free world to support us. That is something very unlikely in the near future.

Another possibility would be to do everything we could do to weaken and subvert Islamic governments. Our government could covertly support and encourage rebellion, but that is also easier said than done. However that too is also much easier said than done, there also would be a heavy price if our subversion was discovered. It could start a full scale war between the Islam-o-Fascist state and America.

The least we could do and should do is stand up for our values. Stop being politically correct and say that western culture is superior to Islamic culture. Support individual rights and human rights and point out that they don't depend on culture. Also stand up against the Islam-o-Fascist when it comes to religious freedom in particular and as Citizen Warrior always says, stop conceding to their demands.

However we can take comfort in the fact that Islam is unlikely to be around forever. Throughout most of human history, people were hunter gathers. The earliest_civilizations start sometime around 3000 BC. That means that world wide human civilization is only about five thousand years old and Islam has only existed for a fraction of that time.
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Note that in my original comment the words Truculent_Realism were a link to an article that was not written by me. It was written by a man named Greg Nyquist. That caused some confusion, because it was mistakenly thought I might have written it. I should have been clear in my original comment that I did not write it. A truculent realist is someone who believes he has a responsibility to to always view the world the way it actually is, regardless of his desires.

maccusgermanis said...

If islam is an infection, then the nature of the infected should be considered. Any conceit that, as a matter of genetics, their mind works fundamentally different from ours should be discarded. Muslims are hateful creatures only to the degree that they are infected by a hateful ideology. A beating into a re-submission, based on misunderstandings of the Civil War, is not the successful pattern evidenced by muslim Apostates.

The rule of law must be upheld. It duelly protects us, and conditions our unruly guests. Otherwise we should defend their freedom to puzzle their own way out, with our constant pressure to confront whether they actually believe that which is their proclaimed faith.

As islam is both, a personal religious decision, and an inseparable devotion to political violence, there is more than one treatment. Manifestations of violence must be violently resisted. Prevarications must be doggedly pursued. And we need to be prepared for confessions as well. Munafiq aren't entirelly stupid. Many of them know how hopeless their task of "moderating" islam is.

Ultimately there is only one cure. Islam must die. Unfortunatly most of the suggestions that I've read above aren't likely to get the job done.

Damien said...

maccusgermanis,

I don't think we could forcibly destroy the religion, no matter how hard we try. Keep in mind that not all Muslims accept Jihad or Sharia. You can argue that they are not being logically consistent all you want, but what about those genuine moderates? How do you deal with them, when they are peaceful? Forcing the none violent individuals who accept only part the Islamic ideology, but reject the worst parts, to give up Islam isn't really an option and its unlikely that we will be able to talk a majority out of their religion either.

Damien said...

maccusgermanis,

By the way, I know you are not going to want to hear this, but there may actually be a small genetic component as well as an ideological component to the Jihadist's actions. There maybe certain genes that make some people more prone to violence and fanaticism than others. The people with those genes who are born into an Islamic country, have Muslim parents or convert to the religion would be slightly more likely to take it to the violent extreme.

Epaminondas said...

See, I really don't want to destroy the religion.

The root of civilizational difficulties seems obvious..and that 'the base' of my request .. all we have to have is a recognition that either god was a racist or that he didn't author the Quran.

That's not asking too much , is it?

Citizen Warrior said...

Damien, sorry to edit you, but I was doing everything I could to keep it short.

Citizen Warrior said...

Maccus Germanis, although I agree that the Islam problem is very likely ideological more than genetic, WE (the non-Muslim victims of Islam's relentless encroachment) cannot rely on the methods apostates have used on themselves. It's not a model we could use to suppress or reverse the encroachment.

I really like what you said: "The rule of law must be upheld. It duelly protects us, and conditions our unruly guests. Otherwise we should defend their freedom to puzzle their own way out, with our constant pressure to confront whether they actually believe that which is their proclaimed faith."

Excellent.

But you also said, "Ultimately there is only one cure. Islam must die. Unfortunately most of the suggestions that I've read above aren't likely to get the job done."

Okay, what WOULD get the job done?

Damien said...

Citizen Warrior,

you said,
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sorry to edit you, but I was doing everything I could to keep it short.
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Its no big deal I understand, you did what you thought you had to do. I appreciate having even part of my comment re-posted. I just wanted what I was actually trying to say to be clear as possible. We have to weigh our opinions carefully and realistically when it comes to dealing with the a threat such as this.

maccusgermanis said...

As imperfect as proven methods may be, they are the best yet. The mind of an apostate no longer harbors the unresolved conflicts such as Epa does above suggest.

The only other method that assures such pacification of the devotees to a seventh century death cult is death.

A middle ground is that we expect nominal muslims to be perpetually inconsistent in their logic. I don't think it wise to rely on a concept of perpetual inconsistence. Even if by accident, they'll likely figure out that jihad and sharia are a part of islam.

The solution is apostacy. Everything else is management.

Damien said...

Citizen Warrior,
Maccusgermanis

Another thing we might be able to do lessen the problem, is to try to figure out what exactly are the conditions that make the religion, or at least the worst of it, more appealing and lessen those conditions to the degree that we can. That way we may be able to decrease the number of people who are becoming Jihadists in the first place. No matter what the Koran or other Islamic text may say, belief in and of itself is powerless, people need a motive to act on a belief. The Muslims will only be logically consistent in their beliefs and actions if they have a motive to do so. Unlike what some philosophers may think, there is no over whelming tendency to logical consistency in human in human nature in general. This includes both beliefs and actions. I can come up with case after case of people being logically inconsistent throughout history, and entire cultures and religions that maintain a logically inconstant set of beliefs for centuries.

maccusgermanis said...

A condition that makes islam more appealing is this belief in universal hypocracy. If you can indentify logical inconsistenties -consistently even- throughout history, then so can they. They have. The internal logical consistency, however detached from reality, of muslims that actually believe in islam is what has and will continue to recuit in both good times and bad.

SamenoKami said...

EPA - See, I really don't want to destroy the religion.

I really do want to see the religion destroyed. No one will miss it. It (unlike a few other religions) has contributed nothing to the betterment of the planet. It is a warrior cult, anti-freedom, anti-female, anti-every other religion and a few dozen other negatives. Somebody please tell me where the good of islam has outweighed the bad. You can't, cause it ain't there. We don't swoon and lament that Aztec worship died out and no one would lament a demise of islam. Here's a weird tho't - snap your fingers and imagine islam had ceased to exist, instantly there are no more muslims anywhere in the world and none of the problems they create. Do you realize how peaceful this planet would be? Wow!

Imagine World Peace- Destroy islam.

Citizen Warrior said...

That would make a great bumper sticker!

Imagine world peace — destroy Islam.

I wrote an article awhile back that has two world maps to compare. One is a map of freedom. It shows, in different shades of color, which countries have more freedom and which have less. The other map shows the world population of Muslims in different shades of color. It is amazing how similar they look.

Check out the maps here: World Peace.

I found those two maps because I was looking for a map that showed world conflicts and which ones involved Muslims, because Serge Trifkovic said most of the conflicts in the world involve Muslims, and if you took away conflicts involving Muslims, the world would be a pretty peaceful place. I think he's got to be right, but I would really like to have a map that shows it. Anyone?

Damien said...

maccusgermanis

You said,
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A condition that makes islam more appealing is this belief in universal hypocracy. If you can indentify logical inconsistenties -consistently even- throughout history, then so can they. They have. The internal logical consistency, however detached from reality, of muslims that actually believe in islam is what has and will continue to recuit in both good times and bad.
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What do you mean exactly by a belief in universal hypocrisy and identifying logical inconsistencies? I can identify people who have logically inconsistent beliefs, (which includes pretty much almost everyone. I probably have a few that I am unaware off.) and I believe that all people are guilty of hypocrisy to some degree or another, (no one is perfect) but that does not make Islam anymore appealing to me, than it would if I had a completely rosy picture of man kind. The only things about Islam that I could ever find remotely appealing is its belief in an after life, moral certitude and absolutism and I don't find their view of morality appealing at all, in fact it disgusts me.

Ya I would like to be able to always have absolute certainty about how I should behave, and I kind of like the simplicity of seeing everything in black and white terms, but I know that is not how the world works. Yes I do believe that some things all black and white, but not all things are. Plus any belief system that says that you must be killed for questioning it is inherently evil, even if its followers don't always live according to it.

As for what it says about an after life, all major religions throughout history mentioned one. That is nothing special. So there is nothing about Islam that would make me want convert to it, despite the fact that I see logical inconsistency all around me, and I regard human beings as innately flawed creatures.

Citizen Warrior said...

I don't think many people BECOME Muslims because they are enticed by its logic. Islamic recruiting tactics are as full of deceit as everything else. Remember, until someone converts to Islam, they are non-Muslims, and are fair game for taqiyya. So they are basically TRICKED into becoming Muslims. And then, of course, there is no way out.

Most Muslims are Muslims because their parents were Muslims, and those parents are Muslims because their parents were Muslims, and so on back to when a country was taken by force and converted or coerced the population to become Muslim. It wasn't by choice, I would guess, for 99 percent of Muslims now living.

Damien said...

Citizen Warrior,

I don't have a map that shows all the conflicts going on now involving Islam. I wish I did.

Unfortunately even if the overwhelming majority of conflicts now involve Islam, I don't think that getting rid of the religion would bring about world peace. If Islam disappeared entirely tomorrow its most likely that another violent belief system or belief systems would soon take its place. I don't think the world has ever experienced one day of world peace, for the entire recorded history of humanity. People fought long and bloody wars, long before Mohammad was even born. Note, that I am not defending Islam, I'm just pointing out an unpleasant fact.

SamenoKami said...

islam disappearing would not bring about total world peace but there would be a 90% decrease in total worldwide hostilities. I'll take that any day.

Damien said...

Citizen Warrior,

You said,
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I don't think many people BECOME Muslims because they are enticed by its logic. Islamic recruiting tactics are as full of deceit as everything else. Remember, until someone converts to Islam, they are non-Muslims, and are fair game for taqiyya. So they are basically TRICKED into becoming Muslims. And then, of course, there is no way out.

Most Muslims are Muslims because their parents were Muslims, and those parents are Muslims because their parents were Muslims, and so on back to when a country was taken by force and converted or coerced the population to become Muslim. It wasn't by choice, I would guess, for 99 percent of Muslims now living.
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But what is it that motivates them to actually follow Islam to its logical conclusion? In particular what motivates people who converted to Islam to do so. Some people convert to Islam, and than become apostates, while others reject Jihad and Sharia, but embrace the parts of the faith that they happen to like, while a third group totally embrace Islam and become Jihadists. What is it that motivates these three different groups of people? Why doesn't every non Muslim who joins Islam today become an apostate, or cower in fear? Why would anyone tricked or forced into joining Islam become a Jihadist? If he was forced into it and never really came to see himself as a Muslim, or if he was tricked into it, once he realizes what the faith is really like, why not risk his life and become an apostate or cower in fear instead. What would motivate those people to trick or force other people into becoming Muslims, if they themselves were tricked or forced into it. I can understand those people who were raised as Muslims becoming Jihadists much easier than I can understand someone who was tricked or forced into it becoming one. What do you think could be the psychology behind that phenomenon?

I have a feeling that in at least some cases, its the worst parts of Islam that attract people to it. Human nature has a very dark side.

Citizen Warrior said...

I just read this in an EXCELLENT letter by Ali Sina:

"Islam is not a religion based on logic or reason. It is based on lies and on hypes. When the hype is busted, Islam will disappear, like puncturing a balloon with a needle."

That comment is relevant to our discussion and also his recipe for curing the disease. He says in the letter:

"In the interests of humanity, I urge both Muslims and non-Muslims to read the Quran so that they can discover for themselves the stupidity of this book and feel its violence. Then I ask everyone not to remain indifferent. Muslims; please leave Islam. If you don’t like what you see, if you are not a terrorist yourself and do not support it, then leave Islam...

"If you are a non-Muslim I urge you also to read the Quran. It won’t take you long to see the violence and hate that emanates from that book. Once you come to see that Islam is not a religion but a dangerous lie, then stop being polite about it lest you hurt the Muslims' sensitivities. Be truthful! Call a spade a spade. Do not sacrifice the truth at the altars of political correctness. Muslims need to be jolted to reality. Let them feel the heat. They have been too comfortable for too long. They must end this complacency. They must be forced to go back to their “holy” book and rethink about their belief. Once they come to know the real “pure” Islam, most of them will leave this cult. Then it would be easy to see who is a terrorist. This will also weaken the terrorists. Where do you think the terrorists get their unlimited supply of new recruits? The terrorists are these very average Muslims who heed to the call of Muhammad and rise to fight the disbelievers. Q.8:65"

SamenoKami said...

An interesting psychological analysis of religious adherents said that when people join or are part of a religion that they later find out is bogus, they don't drop out, they re-double their efforts and devotion so as to not look like the complete idiots they know themselves to be.
There is great internal distress when you find out for yourself that something as fundamental as your god, is a joke/lie. For too many it is easier to carry on with the lie than to admit you were wrong about so fundamental a human concept. Throw in a few murdering fanatics and it's even more difficult. islam will never change, it must be destroyed from the outside.

Damien said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Damien said...

SamenoKami,

You gave a pretty good explanation for why converts who were tricked into the faith might become Jihadists, but it doesn't explain why those who were forced into it against their will would.

Citizen Warrior said...

Damien, it seems to me if you are Muslim and you have been raised to believe the Qur'an is the world of the Almighty, then when a recruiter comes along and asks you to read the Qur'an and really follow what it says, you would do one of two things: Be appalled at the content and leave Islam. Or, decide that because it is a forgone conclusion that Islam is the only true religion, you'd better just buck up and do what it says if you have any hope of making it to the Promised Land.

Citizen Warrior said...

Although it might be true that removing Islam would not reduce conflict in the world, it might not. Check this out:

Peace On Earth? Increasingly, Yes

Peace is Breaking Out

Citizen Warrior said...

I recommend to all of us the book, INFLUENCE, by Robert Cialdini. It is an extensive study of what influences people to comply. It is a fascinating book, and thoroughly relevant to those of us working to stop Islam's relentless encroachment, both to understand how Jihadis become Jihadis but also to understand how to influence our fellow non-Muslims.

Damien said...

Citizen Warrior,

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Damien, it seems to me if you are Muslim and you have been raised to believe the Qur'an is the world of the Almighty, then when a recruiter comes along and asks you to read the Qur'an and really follow what it says, you would do one of two things: Be appalled at the content and leave Islam. Or, decide that because it is a forgone conclusion that Islam is the only true religion, you'd better just buck up and do what it says if you have any hope of making it to the Promised Land.
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Not necessarily, there is a third course action that some choose.

I would only become a Jihadist or stop being a Muslim, If I was motivated to be logically consistent either way. If I was a Muslim and I was really attached to my faith, yet I was appalled by Jihadists and Sharia, I might not become a Jihadist, or abandon the faith entirely regardless of what my religious text actually said, even if I read it thoroughly.

I might read Koran and instead attempt to explain away the support for Jihad and Sharia, or come up with a reason why the violent intolerant passages were no longer relevant. The Third logically inconstant option is a possibility. I might even have a very liberal interpretation of Koran where I just ignore everything I don't like, that's extremely violent or intolerant, or come up with some very creative interpretations. People are not always logically consistent, and its a mistake to assume they always are. People are motivated by desire and sentiment, not logical consistency or logic.

SamenoKami said...

damien - but it doesn't explain why those who were forced into it against their will would.
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I'm not sure I can 'splain that. I would think that those forced into islam would be marginal muslims at best. Bang your head, grow a beard, beat your wife and little else. Repeated propagandizing could push them over the edge into jihading, I guess.

SamenoKami said...

damien - If I was a Muslim and I was really attached to my faith, yet I was appalled by Jihadists and Sharia, I might not become a Jihadist,
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Then in that case you would not be a good muslim and would be called to task by the true believers. The violent passages are in the koran. The koran IS the word of allah. To not believe is death. If you were really attached to islam you would be a jihader because it's all there in black and white - Kill the infidel; Jews are pigs; Kill the Jew; Chase down the infidel and kill him. There is no middle ground.
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damien - I might read Koran and instead attempt to explain away the support for Jihad and Sharia, or come up with a reason why the violent intolerant passages were no longer relevant.

The Third logically inconstant option is a possibility. I might even have a very liberal interpretation of Koran where I just ignore everything I don't like, that's extremely violent or intolerant, or come up with some very creative interpretations.
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Those passages have to be relevant to the muslim. The koran is not a buffet where you pick what you like and reject what you don't. It's all or none. Tell the imam you disagree or question the validity of some passage and see how many stitches and teeth you have after the explanation. Every muslim who reads the koran devoutly will eventually see the light of the jihader. He may not jihad but he will cheer for the others who do.

Damien said...

SamenoKami,

I'm not denying that Koran is a violent text and that following it to its logical conclusion would lead to fanaticism, but not all people who accept part of the faith embrace the whole thing. There's a group out there called, Muslims Against Sharia. Not all Muslims embrace everything their holy text says. There are genuine moderates, but they don't have any real power. Certainly from the Jihadist stand point there is no middle ground, but that does not say anything about what the moderates think.

Plus you failed to noticed that I'm am not saying that this is logically consistent or truly desirable behavior, although its far better than becoming a Jihadist. I would much rather they abandon their faith entirely, but I can't choose for other people.

In a way it doesn't matter if the Koran was intended as buffet where people pick and choose what they want. People pick and choose what they want when it comes to the Bible, and that wasn't meant as a buffet either. The violent passages maybe relevant to the Muslims, but not everyone who see themselves as a Muslim accepts them.

Again, you fail to realize that there is no such thing as a drive toward logical constancy. Someone is only going to do what the Koran or any other religious text tells him if he is motivated to do so.

Damien said...

SamenoKami,

I was really just pointing out a flaw in Citizen Warrior's argument.

Damien said...
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Damien said...

And one last thing, I'm aware that as far as the Jihadists, are concerned the secular or liberal Muslims are also Infidels.

Damien said...

by the way, I meant to say "logical consistency" not "logical constancy."
Sorry about that.

I have some bad blogging habits that need to be fixed.

SamenoKami said...

What is the faith of islam?
When someone says I am of the islamic religion, my faith is islam, what are they saying? They are saying their life and tho'ts line up best with what is taught by islam. islam influences their world view. The koran is islam just as the Torah is Judaism and the New Testament is Christianity. You can't have one w/o the other. If they are saying I am a muslim because I come from a muslim country, that is not the same as being a muslim, any more than being from a Christian country is being a Christian. That is identity not religion/faith.
What you read, study, enjoy or follow becomes ingrained within your tho't process. It doesn't have to follow any logic and is in fact beyond logic.
IF a person believes allah, believes the koran, does any reading, memorizing, study, those words will imprint that person's life, hence cases of 'sudden islamic jihad.' Plus the imam's personality will influence the personality of the muslim under his voice. Why go thru all the motions if you don't want more of what allah has to offer? Death is all he offers. Just quit. But they can't because that would be admitting they were wrong, it would put a price on their head and secretly even marginal muslims are proud of the 'fact' that islam will one day rule the world.
I don't care what islam believes or does or allows or any thing except for the fact that they are commanded to kill unbelievers. It is all diabolical and decent people don't flock to that kind of religion. muslims against sharia would be better named ex-muslims against sharia, yet they still want to hold on to islam even tho' they are bad muslims (bad because they are in essence unbelievers.) Religion is a search for a higher purpose than self, and marginal muslims are in effect saying 'this ain't taking me anywhere' (but it is a safer place to be than any other religion, cause the jihaders are gunning for those folks.)
Christianity has its "jihaders" in the name of the Phelps (?) family (that inbred group that marches at the funerals of our soldiers) and they are reviled and despised. Where are all these moderate muslims decrying (and betraying) islam and jihaders. There are none because the sharks (jihaders) swim in the sea of islam and the moderates know it and do nothing.

It's late, I'm in a foul mood and probably should delete this. Damien, if this doesn't fit what you are saying just ignore it. The topic will come up again.

Damien said...
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Damien said...
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Damien said...
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Damien said...

SamenoKami,

People can have logically inconsistent beliefs. This is true especially when it comes to religion.
Although in a way, it might make things harder, not every one who accepts part of Islam accepts the whole thing. However there's a good piece of me that is always going to be happy about that fact, since it is still much better than them choosing to become Jihadists.

I regard Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism or the vast majority of other religions around today as superior to Islam. I'm not someone who see Islam as a religion of peace, but not every so called Muslims lives according to Islamic teachings, just as not every Jew or Christian or Hindu lives according to their faith's teachings.

Damien said...

SamenoKami,

you said,
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I don't care what islam believes or does or allows or any thing except for the fact that they are commanded to kill unbelievers. It is all diabolical and decent people don't flock to that kind of religion. muslims against sharia would be better named ex-muslims against sharia, yet they still want to hold on to islam even tho' they are bad muslims (bad because they are in essence unbelievers.) Religion is a search for a higher purpose than self, and marginal muslims are in effect saying 'this ain't taking me anywhere' (but it is a safer place to be than any other religion, cause the jihaders are gunning for those folks.)
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maybe you don't realize that the group Muslim Agienst Sharia has done things like Post Fitna on their website and post links to the websites of Prominent ex-Muslims like Ayaan Hirsi Ali, in their side bar, so for what ever reason they haven't given up Islam in total, it has nothing to do with appeasing Jihadists.

Citizen Warrior said...

Samkomeni, you said, "I'm not sure I can 'splain that. I would think that those forced into Islam would be marginal Muslims at best."

I would say that's probably true for the first generation or two. But after living in a culture where everyone is Muslim, and growing up in a Muslim household, and from birth everything in your world supports the idea the the only way to be is Muslim, your ability to consider leaving the faith might be pretty weak. It might even be hard to consider it.

Damien, I like your third alternative, and I think probably most Muslims in the world have made that choice. Being Muslim is a foregone conclusion so the best they can do is try to explain away the inconsistencies as best they can.